# We need a News of Weird, Racism version **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [July 28, 2011, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-a-news-of-weird-racism-version/590562 "2011-07-28T00:06:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-a-news-of-weird-racism-version/590562/61 "2011-07-28T11:40:21Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I’m not clear on the distinction you’re making here. If stopping teen pregnancy were a _mission_ of the school, it would make (a certain kind of) sense to effect _any_ policy that was believed to have the effect of reducing teen pregnancy–such as denying rightfully-earned honors to a student who had a pregnancy. Or expelling her. This is entirely different from simply covering the _subject_ of teen pregnancy in some class in a fact-based way. > [@Miller](#): > > I don’t think there’s anything wrong about not giving a teenager who has made a extremely poor life decision the highest honor possible in the high school system. I think it is very wrong. Since when is the quality of “life decisions” made by a particular student–which have very demonstrably _not_ impeded that student’s education–any business of a public school? The message being sent thereby would seem to be: _actual_ achievements don’t matter as much as the appearance of propriety. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-a-news-of-weird-racism-version/590562/62 "2011-07-28T13:18:38Z")
Monstro, I eviscerated your position, and then Miller came along and stomped on its ashes. So, I can understand you deciding not to respond, you have no leg to stand on at this point. You didn’t even summarize the facts correctly when you quoted them right above your summary. You need to get the facts straight before attempting to make an argument, and you didn’t even do that. Also, conducting oneself like an adult does not include assuming that anything bad that happens to a black person was due to racism and bristling at any suggestion to the contrary. It’s a big world out there–people do things for lots of reasons. Sometimes a bad thing happens to a black person and would still have happened if that person were not black. Also, I agree I was being a jerk in that post, and I apologize to the board. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-a-news-of-weird-racism-version/590562/63 "2011-07-28T13:33:13Z")
What stupid bigots. Take them to the cleaners, with luck, they’ll be a round of firings afterwards. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-a-news-of-weird-racism-version/590562/64 "2011-07-28T13:40:42Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I’m not clear on the distinction you’re making here. > > What lie are you talking about? It’s a fact that teenagers who get pregnant are much less likely to finish school than teenagers who don’t. All the more reason to celebrate this girl’s achievements. Not only did she finish school, but she left the rest of her graduating class eating her dust and did it while pregnant/caring for her child. She’s a hero and a goddamn symbol of motherly strength. _snaps fingers_ You go girl. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-a-news-of-weird-racism-version/590562/65 "2011-07-28T13:52:59Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > What lie are you talking about? It’s a fact that teenagers who get pregnant are much less likely to finish school than teenagers who don’t. I’m not advocating that the schools should claim that teenagers who get pregnant can _never_ finish high school, but I don’t think there’s anything wrong about not giving a teenager who has made a extremely poor life decision the highest honor possible in the high school system. If you have a kid when your sixteen, you’re going to miss out on some opportunities in life. There’s nothing wrong with making valedictorian one of those things you miss out on. Your argument doesn’t make any sense to me. What other hardships and extra efforts should be cause for punishment? The truth is, this young lady endured rigors most people her age cannot handle well at all, and she not only handled them but also handled more of an academic load than most (she was taking honors and advanced classes) and she was handling the higher academic load better than all other kids were handling any academic load at all. And for that, you think she should be singled out as a failure and punished by not being allowed to be the class valedictorian, in order to send a message to kids to… what? To not get pregnant because achieving can’t be done? Clearly it can. To not get pregnant because society will stomp on you hard, despite all your good attributes? Well, I suppose that message would get across, but to what use? Again, your argument makes no sense to me. IMO, she deserves praise for achieving the highest class GPA, _regardless_ of the fact that she was pregnant and gave birth to a child. Her pregnancy has nothing to do with her GPA, except to make it an even more remarkable achievement given the added responsibilities and stress she must have been under. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-a-news-of-weird-racism-version/590562/66 "2011-07-28T14:18:43Z")
Bo, Miller is not making that argument. All he is saying is that the fact that the girl had a baby could be the cause of the perceived “big mess”–ie, that could be why they didn’t want to make her the valedictorian. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-a-news-of-weird-racism-version/590562/67 "2011-07-28T14:25:33Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Having a teenaged girl with a baby named valedictorian Those wacky African-American baby names! ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-a-news-of-weird-racism-version/590562/68 "2011-07-28T14:25:45Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > What stupid bigots. Take them to the cleaners, with luck, they’ll be a round of firings afterwards. What is your evidence that the school administrators are bigots? ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-a-news-of-weird-racism-version/590562/69 "2011-07-28T14:31:38Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > Do I even have to say it? > > Formal warning issued. > > Reason: Being a jerk. Bravo. About damn time this guy got shown the yellow card. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-a-news-of-weird-racism-version/590562/70 "2011-07-28T14:43:10Z")
Sorry, edit window closed. With that said, the linked story seems a bit garbled. I’ll agree that selecting a “co-valedictorian” seems rather arbitrary, to say the least, but that still means the other person in question is a valedictorian, right? If a lawsuit is being filed, what are the presumed losses being sued for? I don’t really get it. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-a-news-of-weird-racism-version/590562/71 "2011-07-28T14:55:36Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Bo, Miller is not making that argument. All he is saying is that the fact that the girl had a baby could be the cause of the perceived “big mess”–ie, that could be why they didn’t want to make her the valedictorian. Wrong. He is making that argument. I quoted it in the post above, but I’ll quote it again. > [@Miller](#): > > If you have a kid when your sixteen, you’re going to miss out on some opportunities in life. There’s nothing wrong with making valedictorian one of those things you miss out on. And another one: > [@Miller](#): > > It’s entirely proper that the administration would be extremely leery of undercutting their “Don’t get pregnant” message by giving so much recognition to a teenaged mother. He’s clearly arguing that in his view, it’s okay for the school to deny her the position of valedictorian because of her pregnancy, in order to send or reinforce a message that has nothing to do with whether or not her GPA was highest among her classmates. And that argument makes no sense to me, as that denial would only send a message that society will punish young women who get pregnant, despite any redeeming characteristics, even extraordinary ones. Why would we, as a society, seek to send that message? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-a-news-of-weird-racism-version/590562/72 "2011-07-28T14:56:51Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > Sorry, edit window closed. > > With that said, the linked story seems a bit garbled. I’ll agree that selecting a “co-valedictorian” seems rather arbitrary, to say the least, but that still means the other person in question is a valedictorian, right? If you were on the baseball team that won 4 out of 7 games in the World Series, would you want to be known as co-champions with the team that you outperformed? > [@El\_Kabong](#): > > If a lawsuit is being filed, what are the presumed losses being sued for? I don’t really get it. I think it’s an attempt to damage her reputation, for one. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-a-news-of-weird-racism-version/590562/73 "2011-07-28T15:17:38Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I don’t think there’s anything wrong about not giving a teenager who has made a extremely poor life decision the highest honor possible in the high school system. They’re not _giving_ her anything. Highest GPA=Valedictorian. This is not something that they’re within their rights to deny her. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-a-news-of-weird-racism-version/590562/74 "2011-07-28T16:36:22Z")
If this was all about her being a mom, you’d think they would have just denied her enrollment in AP classes a year ago, when she was actually pregnant. Their reasoning could have been: “It’s for the good of the child”. A young mother can’t handle the responsibilities of AP courses. Sorry, Kimberly." Problem would have been solved then, right? Gotta love how people are so denial about racism on this board that they glom onto alternative theories–no matter how implausible or how little evidence there is to support them–whenever an apparently galling example of discrimination surfaces. Sure, this could be about a teen having the audacity to succeed in school while being a mother. Why this is supposed to be preferable to racism, is beyond me. But we have no reason to believe this is the case, anway. Is it _that_ hard to believe that the student and her mother know more about this situation than the skeptics do, and this insight is why they are making the claim that they are? I’m thinking they have had a lot more access to backroom conversations than anyone else. If they had reason to believe this was about her being a mom, a reasonable question is why aren’t they sueing for that? Their justification would be just as strong and they’d probably have a better chance of winning their case in front of a jury that very likely dismisses the notion that overt racism still exists in the year 2011. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-a-news-of-weird-racism-version/590562/75 "2011-07-28T16:43:57Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > If you were on the baseball team that won 4 out of 7 games in the World Series, would you want to be known as co-champions with the team that you outperformed? Just to be clear, I sympathize completely with the young lady being upset due to the apparent arbitrary selection of a co-valedictorian. I just don’t see a viable lawsuit in it. > [@](#): > > I think it’s an attempt to damage her reputation, for one. Perhaps, but I think it’s going to be difficult to show actual monetary damages. I’ll leave it to a lawyer-poster to comment on whether this is feasible or not. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-a-news-of-weird-racism-version/590562/76 "2011-07-28T16:54:53Z")
**you with the face** , I think most of us just can’t wrap our minds around discrimination this blatant. “There has to be another explanation—even if they thought it, nobody in 2011 would seriously deny a black person an earned honor,” we think. You might also consider how people are educated about discrimination. As a white person, discrimination was always a very abstract idea, something that happened in the past or the South but not really relevant. Certainly not something I ever looked out for. Black friends have pointed out to me that their experience was different—not only have they experienced discrimination in California, where I was taught that there wasn’t any, they had a large network of informal education in the subject from friends and family. To take one example, a friend was told not to study German in high school because she was black. I had a similar reaction to the idiocy **Rand Rover** demonstrates in this thread—I simply couldn’t believe that was racism, but kept grasping at straws to find another explanation. Looking back, it was obviously racism, I just had a strong emotional investment in the belief that my world wasn’t like that. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-a-news-of-weird-racism-version/590562/77 "2011-07-28T17:20:23Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > I have read a couple of articles about it. The co-val had a slightly lower gpa, but a half credit more in coursework. The principal is white, but the black superintendent says he would have made the same decision. The handbook says that a student taking more credits and maintaining an A will not be penalized. > > I wonder if the co-val went to the administrators and pointed out the credit difference and the handbook, and the principal said yeah you are right? This sounds like the most likely scenario, and I suspect the school probably figured they’d avoid a big uproar by making them co-vals rather than rescind the title from KymWim. Wonder how that’s working out? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-a-news-of-weird-racism-version/590562/78 "2011-07-28T17:36:54Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > **you with the face** , I think most of us just can’t wrap our minds around discrimination this blatant. I’d agree with you except for one thing. I’m 99% certain that if this story was about white kid at a majority-black school, there wouldn’t be so many posters being incredulous at the thought that racial politics would be behind making her a co-valendictorian with a lesser qualified black student. Instead of apologetic theories being brought forth about her being a teenage parent, the whole situation would be 1) roundly dismissed as a disgraceful outrage, 2) a sign of the dumbing down of America due to the soft bigotry of low expectations, and 3) proof that anti-white racism is a pervasive threat. In sum, we’d be seeing evidence for [this](http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/05/110523124220.htm) article. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-a-news-of-weird-racism-version/590562/79 "2011-07-28T18:13:48Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Anyways, treating someone differently because they have a kid in high school is no less prejudiced than treating them differently because they are black. That’s arguably true – but there’s a key difference. It may be legally permissible to treat a minor student differently because she is pregnant, or a mother, where it’s not legally permissible to treat a minor student differently because she is black. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-a-news-of-weird-racism-version/590562/80 "2011-07-28T18:14:24Z")
A tree falls in the forest. Monstro, you with the face, et al: “Those damn beavers! Always chewing on trees and knocking them down!” Everyone else: “How do yo know it was beavers? Could have been loggers, or a lightning strike, or maybe the tree just rotted and died.” M, ywtf, etc.: “Nope, it’s beavers. Why are you denying that it was beavers when it’s so obvious? Beavers in the forest are a pervasive problem.” EE: “Oh? Why do you think there is a pervasive beaver problem?” M—: “Because trees are always faling in the forest.” EE: “And how do you know that beavers are responsible in those cases?” M—: “Because of the pervasive beaver problem! What are you, stupid or something?” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-a-news-of-weird-racism-version/590562.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-a-news-of-weird-racism-version/590562.md?page=5)