# We need a News of Weird, Racism version **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [July 28, 2011, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-a-news-of-weird-racism-version/590562 "2011-07-28T00:06:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Living_Well_Is_Best_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-a-news-of-weird-racism-version/590562/101 "2011-07-29T15:04:45Z")
> [@42fish](#): > > Pointless nitpick department: Arkansas is AR; AK is Alaska. Oops, thank you. Same could probably be said for the home of dear Sarah Palin, as well. ---
**Author:** ![Indygrrl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@Indygrrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indygrrl)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-a-news-of-weird-racism-version/590562/102 "2011-07-29T15:07:19Z")
I have no trouble believing this is a racist thing. What’s unbelievable to me is that others are desperate to make it anything but. ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-a-news-of-weird-racism-version/590562/103 "2011-07-29T15:08:15Z")
> [@Indygrrl](#): > > I have no trouble believing this is a racist thing. What’s unbelievable to me is that others are desperate to make it anything but. Welcome to post-racial America. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-a-news-of-weird-racism-version/590562/104 "2011-07-29T15:19:54Z")
> [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](#): > > Yes, these are possibilities, but racism is the more likely culprit. Not sure how you don’t see that. Have you been to AK? It’s not exactly a progressive place. But don’t you see what you are doing here? You think this incident must be racism, based on past incidents you believe must have been racism, which you believed must ve racism based on further past incidents you believe must have been racism. So, 200 years from now, you’ll still be following this chain of thought even though it is possible that no a single incident has actually involved racism for 200 years. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-a-news-of-weird-racism-version/590562/105 "2011-07-29T15:25:07Z")
> [@Indygrrl](#): > > I have no trouble believing this is a racist thing. What’s unbelievable to me is that others are desperate to make it anything but. I’m not desperate to make it anything but. I just think it’s ridiculous that people think an incident like this must be racism. They don’t care about the particular facts involved–their mind is made up before the facts come in. This is why we will never get past our racial issues–some people see racism even where it might not be present. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-a-news-of-weird-racism-version/590562/106 "2011-07-29T15:29:00Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Those facts are not fur and teeth marks–ie, direct evidence of racism. > > Also we have several alternative theories. Here they are in order of plausibility (grom greatest to least): > > 1. Two students had a reasonable claim to the top spot, and the school awarded it to both of them. (Unfortunately, the white student’s claim came only after the black student was told she had the highest grades, thus making some people believe the school had a problem with the val’s race.) > > 2. The school didn’t want the sole val to be a teen mother. > > 3. The school didn’t want the sole val to be a school staff member’s kid. #1 is viable. #2 and #3 suggest that the school does not understand the concept of valedictorian. Not outside the realm of the possibile, but far less likely than racism. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-a-news-of-weird-racism-version/590562/107 "2011-07-29T15:52:15Z")
Is Thomas Gathen, the black superintendent who evidently supported the decision, part of the racial conspiracy? If so, what could possibly be in it for him? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-a-news-of-weird-racism-version/590562/108 "2011-07-29T15:54:35Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > #2 and #3 suggest that the school does not understand the concept of valedictorian. Not outside the realm of the possibile, but far less likely than racism. I don’t see how wanting to use criteria other than pure GPA necessarily leads to the conclusion that they do “not understand the concept of valedictorian.” Historically speaking, how long has it been that GPA is the sole criterion for such an honor? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-a-news-of-weird-racism-version/590562/109 "2011-07-29T16:06:09Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Is Thomas Gathen, the black superintendent who evidently supported the decision, part of the racial conspiracy? If so, what could possibly be in it for him? The same thing that would be in it for a white superintendent. Politics. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-a-news-of-weird-racism-version/590562/110 "2011-07-29T16:11:58Z")
I’m not desperate to make it anything but racism, either. It may be racism, but I don’t think that’s the whole story. From what I understand, the handbook spells out that a student with a lower GPA may be bumped up in class rank if they are taking harder classes. The articles I have read used the phrase “lower GPA” so it doesnt sound like a tiebreaker to me. A tie breaker would be between two identical GPAs but a difference in credits. Wimberly has said there have been co-vals in the past, but it has always been between students with identical GPAs. She doesnt say anything about the credits involved. I think its entirely possible someone miscalculated the second student’s GPA, she or her parents made an argument that she should have been ranked higher than she was, and the school officials decided to try and make everyone happy by making them co-vals. I don’t see what Wimberly lost by sharing the spotlight, though perhaps co-valedictorian is less impressive than sole valedictorian. They didnt take away her honor, and she deserves it and should be praised for her accomplishments. Part of my feeling on the matter is that it seems, the way it has been presented and the reactions of the press and everyone, that if it is racially motivated, that it was insanely stupid that the officials would say, god, no, she’s BLACK! and expect to have it slide away unnoticed. Not to mention that if they didnt want a black valedictorian, well, they failed. She was still valedictorian. So if it was racism, it was ineffective and blindingly stupid. Yes, people are stupid, but it seems beyond the pale that the school would be so overtly racist and think no one would notice. I feel there must be more to it than the color of her skin. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-a-news-of-weird-racism-version/590562/111 "2011-07-29T16:11:59Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I don’t see how wanting to use criteria other than pure GPA necessarily leads to the conclusion that they do “not understand the concept of valedictorian.” Historically speaking, how long has it been that GPA is the sole criterion for such an honor? Forever. If you’re aware of counter-examples, please post, but dictionaries of U.S. English are pretty well agreed that it’s a title bestowed on the student with class rank #1. The term was invented at Harvard an comes from the giver of the valedictory address, but in a high school context it has never been anything but #1 student. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-a-news-of-weird-racism-version/590562/112 "2011-07-29T16:19:35Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > The same thing that would be in it for a white superintendent. Politics. So it’s definitely racism, except when it’s politics? Not trying to be glib here. I’m just not convinced that pure out-and-out racism—intended to punish an uppity black girl for daring to overachieve—makes much sense, based on what I’ve heard so far. Maybe more actual evidence will come out that will change that, but so far all we have is her (and her mother’s) say-so, and a lot of speculation based on the fact that hey, everybody _knows_ how racist those Southern towns/schools are! Nonetheless, her achievement is commendable, no question about that. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-a-news-of-weird-racism-version/590562/113 "2011-07-29T16:19:43Z")
Well, things change. I don’t see any reason that it would be automatically invalid for a school to want to modify or add other criteria. That kind of stuff happens in every other arena of life. This isn’t a constitutional issue or the stone tablets of Sinai. Whether teen motherhood is a valid criterion or not, I would generally support the notion that an honor like valedictorian should account for more than just an arithmetic calculation. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-a-news-of-weird-racism-version/590562/114 "2011-07-29T16:32:11Z")
Racism doesn’t mean the sole motivation is quashing the uppity black girl. If racism were that obvious, it would be easy to combat. What it does is insidiously tinge people’s decision-making, to a level that is sometimes only obvious in retrospect. Let’s say it was an honest mistake: she should have been #2, and her co-val should have been #1. The authorities maybe had positive motivations for dealing with it this way. _Would they have done the same if it had been between two white boys? Or if the two positions had been reversed?_ There’s just no way to test that, but it’s crucial. I call racism. I am sure there are other factors involved (politics, fear of offending people), but I am sure racism is one of them. I am willing to withdraw the accusation upon presentation of evidence that disproves it. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-a-news-of-weird-racism-version/590562/115 "2011-07-29T16:35:11Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > Forever. If you’re aware of counter-examples, please post, but dictionaries of U.S. English are pretty well agreed that it’s a title bestowed on the student with class rank #1. The term was invented at Harvard an comes from the giver of the valedictory address, but in a high school context it has never been anything but #1 student. The Wikipedia article on valedictorian says that at some schools, it’s not simply awarded to the student with the highest GPA, but other factors are considered, and the school board or another group selects a student based on those factors. But however it’s decided should be well known to the students at the school. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-a-news-of-weird-racism-version/590562/116 "2011-07-29T16:39:11Z")
And that’s the ignorance I am hear to fight. You presume racism and want facts that prove a negative–that is absolutely ridiculous, born of ignorance, and counter-productive to moving society past our unfortunately racist past. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-a-news-of-weird-racism-version/590562/117 "2011-07-29T16:39:43Z")
**Dr. Drake** , you say you will withdraw the accusation if evidence is presented to disprove it. Just before that, you say racism is insidous and influences ways of thinking, and there is no way to test if it would have been the same if it had been two white people in the situation. So is there a way to prove there is no racial influence? It seems like no matter what evidence may be presented, there is always a possibility that race was a factor in some way. I think race may have been a factor, but I dont think it was the sole factor. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-a-news-of-weird-racism-version/590562/118 "2011-07-29T16:42:12Z")
Sorry, my last post was in response to Dr. Drake’s post. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-a-news-of-weird-racism-version/590562/119 "2011-07-29T16:45:13Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > And that’s the ignorance I am hear to fight. You presume racism and want facts that prove a negative–that is absolutely ridiculous, born of ignorance, and counter-productive to moving society past our unfortunately racist past. It’s not “born of ignorance.” It’s “born of listening to different black people talk about their experiences and those of their friends and relatives and observing a clear pattern in their stories that is radically different from my own experience as a white person in similar situations.” ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-a-news-of-weird-racism-version/590562/120 "2011-07-29T16:49:46Z")
I’m perfectly willing to believe that there were other factors besides _only_ racism. Maybe the propriety or “message” of the motherhood was in some minds, or some point of vagueness about the standards for qualifying as valedictorian (though you’d think such things _should_ exist in some simple written form somewhere). But it’s mind-boggling to suggest that racism had _no_ part in these other factors becoming significant at the precise moment that it _happened_ to be a black girl–apparently the first time in a long time–who’d come in first at GPA. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-a-news-of-weird-racism-version/590562.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-a-news-of-weird-racism-version/590562.md?page=7)