# "We need conservatives" why? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 29, 2010, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524 "2010-07-29T23:44:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2010, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/241 "2010-08-03T17:42:02Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > The conservatism I can respect accepts the need for change, but only cautions for prudence, that we not do anything destructive to our goals in our enthusiasm for our goals. I can offer an ear to such arguments, and offer counter-arguments without feeling rancor or enmity. THANK YOU. > [@](#): > > Reactionaries are a whole different ball game, cynics a third variety altogether. There is no point in declaring them my enemies, they have declared me theirs. Speaking as a fiscal conservative/social liberal–the reactionaries feel the same thing about me and mine. I yelled until I was hoarse, then I quit the Republicans and went Democrat, preferring their conservative wing to any of the ostensibly “conservative” offerings currently being insane in the idea marketplace of the US. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2010, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/242 "2010-08-03T17:46:09Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Of course they can. Being anti-gay for example is an example of pure malice; cruelty and oppression with no positive effects whatsoever. You can certainly declare yourself morally superior if you oppose that. > > Not all sides of every question are morally equivalent. And on the whole, conservatives are overwhelmingly on the evil side; the side that is motivated by greed, hatred or irrationality. So yes, liberals as a group are morally superior to conservatives; not because they are especially virtuous but because conservatism on the whole is so sadistic and destructive. I’m sorry, you appear to be talking about Republicans. There is nothing inherently conservative about idiotic moral crusades. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > You have to take the world the way it is. Pretending that conservatives and liberals aren’t political opponents is a little naive. As a conservative Democrat (or “Obama Republican”, if you will), I say “fuck that”. Increasingly, I think we’re going to see that the reactionary right gets marginalized, and if we’re lucky we’ll split a sane conservative party off of the Democrats when that happens. That doesn’t make me “liberal” on typical matters of fiscal policy, or “liberal” on gun rights, or a host of other “conservative” issues. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2010, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/243 "2010-08-03T18:30:01Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Is Obama a social conservative? What’s the difference between his position on gay marriage and George Bush’s? I’d say this is evidence that Obama is not a liberal - something which I don’t think he’s ever claimed to be. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2010, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/244 "2010-08-03T21:55:39Z")
Well, there you go. Obama is the first real\* conservative president we’ve had since Eisenhower. I think he’s going a great job, and I plan on working to re-elect him in 2012. \*He never puts sugar on his porridge ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2010, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/245 "2010-08-04T00:42:21Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Well, there you go. Obama is the first real\* conservative president we’ve had since Eisenhower. I think he’s going a great job, and I plan on working to re-elect him in 2012. I don’t think he’s a conservative either. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2010, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/246 "2010-08-04T16:21:15Z")
Well, I seriously do, and I seriously think that’s a good thing. Obama is the first grown-up we’ve had in the White House for a long time, and we desperately need grown-ups. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2010, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/247 "2010-08-04T16:27:40Z")
Oh, I don’t know. Chelsea Clinton always seemed pretty grown up. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2010, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/248 "2010-08-04T16:28:45Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Obama is the first grown-up we’ve had in the White House for a long time, and we desperately need grown-ups. I believe the Tea Party movement that has arisen against him is not so much fundamentally anti-Black, or even anti-Democrat, as it is anti-grown-up. These folks have come to expect that their leaders will treat them like dumb children, and now, they’re flat out _demanding_ it. They fear the demise of the strong-daddy state that will create, then soothe, fear and anger. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/249 "2010-08-05T06:33:24Z")
The tea party is ‘anti-grownup’? Forgetting the blowhards and the clowns, the tea party (which has the sympathy of about 50% of the country, btw) is the party that wants more personal responsibility, less coddling from government, which doesn’t want to pass debt on to its children and grandchildren, and which doesn’t want its basic needs ‘cared for’ by the nanny state. The anti-grownups are the people who want the government to protect them from themselves, to protect them from the negotiations of the marketplace, to make sure they have shelter and health care and food and all the other basics of life without having to pay for it, and who are willing to abdicate their liberty to a bureaucracy for a promise of financial comfort and security. Big government infantilizes the citizenry. The very word ‘entitlement’ means that you feel entitled to goods and services you did not earn, simply because you think you deserve them. That attitude is more common in children than in adults. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 9:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/250 "2010-08-05T09:46:09Z")
Stop equating “left” with “liberal”, people. I’m Left, but I couldn’t give a wet fart for quite a lot of what gets characterised as “liberal” on this board. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/251 "2010-08-05T10:15:34Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > > [@The\_Facts](#): > > > > Name one issue that conservatives have ever been right about. I’ll wait. > > Market economies? Epic fail. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/252 "2010-08-05T16:03:08Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > The tea party is ‘anti-grownup’? Around here it is. Every tea party rally/meeting I’ve been to in Central PA has been essentially like a slightly calmer version of a combination KKK rally and Christian Dominionist meeting–the only coherent points on display are “less taxes!”, “they’re taking our jobs!”, “OMG that not white guy is STILL President?”, and “this is a Christian Nation!”. It’s goddamn sad, is what it is. The right-wing in the US remains co-opted by racist and religious elements to a large degree, which means I have the choice of holding my nose and voting Democrat (and getting a guy who doesn’t agree with me on economics) or holding my nose and voting Republican (and getting a reactionary asshole who hates me because I’m not Catholic (yes, I’m referring specifically to Pat Toomey)). Guess which one, as a Buddhist who has a lot of gay friends in committed relationships, I’m going to do. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/253 "2010-08-05T16:19:16Z")
Meditate? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/254 "2010-08-05T16:27:59Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Forgetting the blowhards and the clowns, the tea party (which has the sympathy of about 50% of the country, btw) is the party that wants more personal responsibility, less coddling from government, which doesn’t want to pass debt on to its children and grandchildren, and which doesn’t want its basic needs ‘cared for’ by the nanny state. No, it’s the party that doesn’t want anyone _else’s_ basic needs cared for by the nanny state. Remember “keep your hands off my Medicare”? ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/255 "2010-08-05T17:01:50Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Not all sides of every question are morally equivalent. And on the whole, conservatives are overwhelmingly on the evil side; the side that is motivated by greed, hatred or irrationality. So yes, liberals as a group are morally superior to conservatives; not because they are especially virtuous but because conservatism on the whole is so sadistic and destructive. This is the stuff of nonsense. It’s like something a high-schooler would write an hour after the first time they skronqued a hippie. I’ve asked people to tell me what about my conservative philosophy is “evil” or “bad” and got no takers, other than a few who trot out a “no true Scotsman” fallacy (while screaming that they’re _not_ doing that, hmm. People must have very low opinions of my intelligence to think I’ll be fooled by that, I reckon). ~ Around here, the Tea Party movement is almost _exactly_ the same people as the Progressive/Perot activist were in the 1990’s. The message they push is “stop spending/pay down the deficit/term limits/kick out illegal immigrants”, none of which is _prima facie_ wrong or should be objectionable to anyone. A key difference is that much more of the Tea Partiers seem to be the pro-self-defense movement than the Perot backers were. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/256 "2010-08-05T17:05:01Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > The tea party is ‘anti-grownup’? > > Forgetting the blowhards and the clowns, the tea party (which has the sympathy of about 50% of the country, btw)… Do you have anything resembling evidence to support your claim here? I’ve scanned the [collected relevant polling](http://www.pollingreport.com/politics.htm) at Polling [Report.com](http://Report.com), and I cannot find anything close to supportive of your claim. Of course, rarely do pollsters ask about sympathies, but looking across polls, favorable opinion tops out at best around 25 to 30%. The closest thing to “sympathy” I see is an ABC poll that asks if people support but are not active in the Tea Party, which was done in April, 2010. 25% responded that they were supportive but not active. When combined with the 2% who said that they were active, that yields 27% active or supportive. Again, I look forward to your evidence for your claim. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/257 "2010-08-05T17:24:46Z")
Of course, if you forget the blowhards and clowns, as **Sam** suggests, their support is an even lower percentage than that. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/258 "2010-08-05T18:22:17Z")
[Poll finds 54% of respondents support the tea party movement](http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/pjtv-rolls-out-weekly-tea-party-poll-99950409.html) [41% of Respondents say they have favorable view of the tea party](http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1209/30298.html) [48% of voters now say the average Tea Party member is closer to their views than Obama is.](http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/elections/election_2012/election_2012_barack_obama_42_ron_paul_41) Measuring ‘support’ is hard to do, because the tea party is not a formal party and does not have leaders. There’s no one place you can go to join. The number of people who say they are members of the tea party is still down in the 20-30% range, but outside of that there is significant support for them. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/259 "2010-08-05T18:27:33Z")
I think it’s fair to say that they have the _sympathy_ of 50+% of the country. Not the support. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/260 "2010-08-05T18:32:36Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Meditate? Sadly, the Universal Nirvana ain’t getting here any sooner, no matter how much I wrench my knees into the ol’ lotus position. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524.md?page=14)