# "We need conservatives" why? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 29, 2010, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524 "2010-07-29T23:44:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/261 "2010-08-05T18:37:19Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > [Poll finds 54% of respondents support the tea party movement](http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/pjtv-rolls-out-weekly-tea-party-poll-99950409.html) > > [41% of Respondents say they have favorable view of the tea party](http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1209/30298.html) > > [48% of voters now say the average Tea Party member is closer to their views than Obama is.](http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/elections/election_2012/election_2012_barack_obama_42_ron_paul_41) > > Measuring ‘support’ is hard to do, because the tea party is not a formal party and does not have leaders. There’s no one place you can go to join. The number of people who say they are members of the tea party is still down in the 20-30% range, but outside of that there is significant support for them. Your first link is to a poll by Pajamas Media TV. I’m sorry, but I think it’s safe to reject that out of hand. Your second two links are to Rasmussen telephone polls. See Nate Silver’s take on Rasmussen, their bias, and their telephone polling here: [Rasmussen – FiveThirtyEight](http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/search/label/rasmussen). Now, he does not reject them out of hand, and until he says otherwise, I’ll accept your pointing to them as a source. I think, on the other hand, that if you are relying only on them and Pajamas Media polling, you’re looking for support for your conclusion rather than evidence of the actual level of support/sympathy in the country for the Tea Party. Having said that, if that’s what you want to do, and you accept that your position is not particuarly well supported and likely biased, so be it. I’ll have no more quibble. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/262 "2010-08-05T18:39:55Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > …Around here, the Tea Party movement is almost _exactly_ the same people as the Progressive/Perot activist were in the 1990’s… Perot was part of the Progressive movement? Since when? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/263 "2010-08-05T18:57:27Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > …It’s like something a high-schooler would write an hour after the first time they skronqued a hippie… Been bummed, stoned, hassled, harassed and had the living shit kicked out of me. Can’t recall if I’ve ever been “skronqued”. Is it something you might have done? Would I follow you around hoping you might do it again? ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/264 "2010-08-05T19:22:25Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > > [@Una\_Persson](#): > > > > …Around here, the Tea Party movement is almost _exactly_ the same people as the Progressive/Perot activist were in the 1990’s… > > Perot was part of the Progressive movement? Since when? I think that they might have been hunting for “Populist” there. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/265 "2010-08-05T20:07:33Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > > > Forgetting the blowhards and the clowns, the tea party (which has the sympathy of about 50% of the country, btw) is the party that wants more personal responsibility, less coddling from government, which doesn’t want to pass debt on to its children and grandchildren, and which doesn’t want its basic needs ‘cared for’ by the nanny state. > > No, it’s the party that doesn’t want anyone _else’s_ basic needs cared for by the nanny state. Remember “keep your hands off my Medicare”? “Personal responsibility” and “coddling” are buzzwords used by politicans to make people _feel_ sensible and grown-up so they don’t know they’re being emotionally manipulated. Whey they really mean is, “We need to make government less humane, so it will help fewer people who need help but don’t deserve it.” This also helps enforce the strict-daddy philosophy as the proper role of those in power, making it easier to keep the public scared of what you need them scared of. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/266 "2010-08-05T20:44:23Z")
> [@](#): > > Your first link is to a poll by Pajamas Media TV. I’m sorry, but I think it’s safe to reject that out of hand. Do you reject polls by Daily Kos or MediaMatters out of hand? Before using that poll, I checked the sourcing of it, and it seems legit. It’s a 1000 person sample of likely voters, using the methods licensed from Rasmussen and carried out by an independent polling agency. Of course, Daily Kos got snookered by a company providing false poll data, and it’s always a possibility here as well. But the other polls put the numbers in the same ballpark. Notice that I said that half the nation was ‘sympathetic’ to the tea party movement. I didn’t say that half the nation supported them or would vote for them. Hard support for the tea party drops down in the range of 20-30%. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/267 "2010-08-05T21:17:00Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Been bummed, stoned, hassled, harassed and had the living shit kicked out of me. Can’t recall if I’ve ever been “skronqued”. Is it something you might have done? Would I follow you around hoping you might do it again? I was wondering myself. Saw some Urban Dictionary entries for “skronk,” but it’s unclear which definition applies. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/268 "2010-08-05T23:35:50Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > > [@Una\_Persson](#): > > > > …Around here, the Tea Party movement is almost _exactly_ the same people as the Progressive/Perot activist were in the 1990’s… > > Perot was part of the Progressive movement? Since when? My apologies; I am incorrect. I meant “Reform Party.” > [@](#): > > Been bummed, stoned, hassled, harassed and had the living shit kicked out of me. Can’t recall if I’ve ever been “skronqued”. Is it something you might have done? Would I follow you around hoping you might do it again? This is an expression Canadian friends of mine said was common in the 1980’s. The literal meaning is “has sexual intercourse”, the typical meaning is “fucked like wild pigs on speed.” The context is one where someone has sex with a hippie chick and suddenly wakes up the next day deciding that hemp is God, free love is mandatory, Flower Power will convince those nice Viet Cong to call a truce, and all the evils of the world are perpetrated by Satanic establishment “suits.” Twenty years _ex post facto_ they’re a harrassed middle-aged middle-manager with 2 mortgages, 2 minivans, 3 kids, 3 Labradors, a prostate the size of a casaba melon, and a cheating ex-hippie chick wife who is taking daily deep anal from the bisexual Goth poolgirl. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2010, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/269 "2010-08-06T03:45:01Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Around here, the Tea Party movement is almost _exactly_ the same people as the Progressive/Perot activist were in the 1990’s. The message they push is “stop spending/pay down the deficit/term limits/kick out illegal immigrants”, none of which is _prima facie_ wrong or should be objectionable to anyone. A key difference is that much more of the Tea Partiers seem to be the pro-self-defense movement than the Perot backers were. 😕 What is this “pro-self-defense movement”? No, let me rephrase that. There is no “pro-self-defense movement.” :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2010, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/270 "2010-08-06T04:02:04Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > …someone has sex with a hippie chick and suddenly wakes up the next day deciding that hemp is God, free love is mandatory, Flower Power will convince those nice Viet Cong to call a truce, and all the evils of the world are perpetrated by Satanic establishment “suits.”… Oh, piffle! No such thing! Go a long way to affirming one’s faith in a just and loving Goddess, sure. Groovy. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2010, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/271 "2010-08-06T04:08:09Z")
> [@The\_Facts](#): > > I know you hate me and I’m not bothered a bit. This is war, between those who want to improve the human condition and those who want to drag us down. It’s natural that both sides hate each other. I don’t hate you. I pity the hell out of you. All I know of you is what you have posted and that is pathetic beyond belief. But I will correct you on one thing: progressives do NOT want to improve the human condition. Quite the opposite; they lose their entire base if the human condition improves. > [@](#): > > The good news is, your side will lose, and a thousand years hence people will look upon you the way we look at people who endorsed slavery or other primitive practices; which is to say they will shit on your grave and regret that you died in peace. > > Have a nice day! :):)🙂 Q. E. D. And because you are a totally worthless little twit, I’m going to put you on ignore so that I don’t have read your ignorant pukings any more. Have a nice day! ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2010, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/272 "2010-08-06T04:35:56Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > No, let me rephrase that. There is no “pro-self-defense movement.” :dubious: Sure there is, it’s the set of people who support fewer firearm regulations, laws enabling both open and concealed carry, and castle doctrine laws. > [@Clothahump](#): > > But I will correct you on one thing: progressives do NOT want to improve the human condition. Quite the opposite; they lose their entire base if the human condition improves. This is illogical unless you assume the only motive anyone ever has is political power. That’s like saying pro-lifers do NOT want to enshrine a permanent abortion ban, because they’d lose their entire base. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2010, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/273 "2010-08-06T13:08:52Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > 😕 What is this “pro-self-defense movement”? > > No, let me rephrase that. There is no “pro-self-defense movement.” :dubious: Because you say so? Are you channeling Diogenes? It’s the heart of the pro-gun movement, but I say pro self-defense because I think the guns are a just a component of it. Arguably the most visible component, but it’s much more than that. Even the NRA says the Second Amendment isn’t about duck hunting. I’ve been in _hundreds_ of arguments with anti-gun people on this message board over 10 years, and when it boils down to it perhaps more than 90% of them really are against the right of effective self-defense. I’ve seen all the arguments possible - I’ve got a notebook somewhere of them. It’s what I consider a large aspect of conservatism: the individual takes first - not only, not sole - responsibility for their own self-defense. Where hardline conservatives get it wrong is by assuming that the individual has the sole or only responsiblity. We are and live in a Community, and conservatism believes the Community exists for the mutual benefit, health, and welfare of its individuals. But the individuals must step up to the plate, to use a hideous baseball analogy, and have the primary role. As opposed to liberalism, which believes the State should have first - not sole, not only - responsibility for your defense. Unfortunately, most liberals I debate with take the hardline view, which is that the State has the sole or only responsibility. The worst case are those who believe that not only should the State be the primary role of defender, but that the police should not be held **both** collectively and individually liable for our defense, thus leaving us helpless on an individual level. That is the worst and frankly most scary version of all. I won’t debate it here; if you disagree so be it, and honestly, have a nice weekend. ---
**Author:** ![Find\_Friends](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@Find\_Friends](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Find_Friends)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2010, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/274 "2010-08-06T14:40:29Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > > [@cosmosdan](#): > > > > How about business owners, including small business owners that which happen to provide a lot of crucial employment. > > How do you know they’re disproportionately conservative? > > **Business has no interest in any political system as such.** (bolding added) Excuse me, BrainGlutton, but your flat statement frankly sounds meaningless to me. (I realize that this is the Pit, but it started out as a GD. So, Pit lovers, please pardon the mild tone. 🙂 ) I’ve worked for several small businesses in Upstate NY. The owner-operators would prefer to stay in business (as conservatives apparently would facilitate) rather than lose their businesses (as liberals apparently would let happen). Yes, yes, I’m aware of what happened with banks and the stock market, etc., in recent years. I’m just saying that the perception of small business people is that liberal approaches are damning in New York State, and elsewhere. And my observation is that this leads them to vote Republican (a “political system”). Maybe, though, if you explained what you meant by “as such” I would understand what your thinking is. _ **- Jack** _ ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2010, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/275 "2010-08-06T14:45:03Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > The tea party is ‘anti-grownup’? > > Forgetting the blowhards and the clowns, the tea party (which has the sympathy of about 50% of the country, btw) is the party that wants more personal responsibility, less coddling from government, which doesn’t want to pass debt on to its children and grandchildren, and which doesn’t want its basic needs ‘cared for’ by the nanny state. > > The anti-grownups are the people who want the government to protect them from themselves, to protect them from the negotiations of the marketplace, to make sure they have shelter and health care and food and all the other basics of life without having to pay for it, and who are willing to abdicate their liberty to a bureaucracy for a promise of financial comfort and security. > > Big government infantilizes the citizenry. The very word ‘entitlement’ means that you feel entitled to goods and services you did not earn, simply because you think you deserve them. That attitude is more common in children than in adults. You mean like when the tea party nearly had a seizure when they cut some of the waste in Medicare part C? We need to get medicare costs under control. The adult thing to do was get rid of the 15% premium we were paying for part C benefits but the tea party threw a tantrum and the Republican party cheered it on. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2010, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/276 "2010-08-06T14:48:43Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > I won’t debate it here; if you disagree so be it, and honestly, have a nice weekend. IOW, you know what we believe and aren’t interested in hearing otherwise? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2010, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/277 "2010-08-06T14:48:56Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > > Not all sides of every question are morally equivalent. And on the whole, conservatives are overwhelmingly on the evil side; the side that is motivated by greed, hatred or irrationality. So yes, liberals as a group are morally superior to conservatives; not because they are especially virtuous but because conservatism on the whole is so sadistic and destructive. > > This is the stuff of nonsense. It’s like something a high-schooler would write an hour after the first time they skronqued a hippie. > > I’ve asked people to tell me what about my conservative philosophy is “evil” or “bad” and got no takers, other than a few who trot out a “no true Scotsman” fallacy (while screaming that they’re _not_ doing that, hmm. People must have very low opinions of my intelligence to think I’ll be fooled by that, I reckon). > > ~ > > Around here, the Tea Party movement is almost _exactly_ the same people as the Progressive/Perot activist were in the 1990’s. The message they push is “stop spending/pay down the deficit/term limits/kick out illegal immigrants”, none of which is _prima facie_ wrong or should be objectionable to anyone. A key difference is that much more of the Tea Partiers seem to be the pro-self-defense movement than the Perot backers were. I remember the Perot folks and frankly their ONLY appeal was the fact that they were a third party. The Tea party doesn’t even have that, it is a repackaging of the Republican party. Its like when Philip Morris changed its name to Altria except that Philip Morris only lied about the effects of tobacco. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2010, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/278 "2010-08-06T14:51:38Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > > Not all sides of every question are morally equivalent. And on the whole, conservatives are overwhelmingly on the evil side; the side that is motivated by greed, hatred or irrationality. So yes, liberals as a group are morally superior to conservatives; not because they are especially virtuous but because conservatism on the whole is so sadistic and destructive. > > This is the stuff of nonsense. It’s like something a high-schooler would write an hour after the first time they skronqued a hippie. > > I’ve asked people to tell me what about my conservative philosophy is “evil” or “bad” and got no takers, other than a few who trot out a “no true Scotsman” fallacy (while screaming that they’re _not_ doing that, hmm. People must have very low opinions of my intelligence to think I’ll be fooled by that, I reckon). You want an answer? Fine; if your version of conservatism isn’t evil, isn’t driven by bigotry, fanaticism and greed, then you don’t matter. You are at best a bystander, and more likely than not supporting people who are the enemy of your beliefs and you personally (since IIRC you’re a woman). Claiming to be the One Nice Conservative doesn’t make conservatism as a whole any less evil and irrational, nor does it make what the conservative movement actually does resemble what you want them to do. In other words, claiming to be a good conservative is like claiming to be a good member of the KKK; joining the KKK and claiming to not be a racist doesn’t make the KKK any less racist, or excuse you from responsibility for the results of supporting them. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2010, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/279 "2010-08-06T15:03:53Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > > [@The\_Facts](#): > > > > I know you hate me and I’m not bothered a bit. This is war, between those who want to improve the human condition and those who want to drag us down. It’s natural that both sides hate each other. > > I don’t hate you. I pity the hell out of you. All I know of you is what you have posted and that is pathetic beyond belief. > > But I will correct you on one thing: progressives do NOT want to improve the human condition. Quite the opposite; they lose their entire base if the human condition improves. Is that like how oncologists don’t actually WANT to cure cancer, they would lose all their patients? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2010, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/280 "2010-08-06T15:06:09Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > > > No, let me rephrase that. There is no “pro-self-defense movement.” :dubious: > > Sure there is, it’s the set of people who support fewer firearm regulations, laws enabling both open and concealed carry, and castle doctrine laws. > > > [@Clothahump](#): > > > > But I will correct you on one thing: progressives do NOT want to improve the human condition. Quite the opposite; they lose their entire base if the human condition improves. > > This is illogical unless you assume the only motive anyone ever has is political power. That’s like saying pro-lifers do NOT want to enshrine a permanent abortion ban, because they’d lose their entire base. Pro-lifers might but the folks they vote for do not. The last thing they want is a placated pro-life base and an energized pro-choice base. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524.md?page=15)