# "We need conservatives" why? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 29, 2010, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524 "2010-07-29T23:44:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2010, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/281 "2010-08-06T16:37:51Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > You want an answer? Fine; if your version of conservatism isn’t evil, isn’t driven by bigotry, fanaticism and greed, then you don’t matter. The argument simply cannot be “good conservatives are irrelevant, thus we should ignore them and continue marginalizing them, rather than recognizing openly that there are good ones?” > [@](#): > > In other words, claiming to be a good conservative is like claiming to be a good member of the KKK; joining the KKK and claiming to not be a racist doesn’t make the KKK any less racist, or excuse you from responsibility for the results of supporting them. Which metaphorical racists do I support, out of curiosity? (PS - I haven’t voted Republican for President since Reagan, and I’ve voted for Democrats, Republicans, and Libertarians for Congress, depending upon their various stances). I mean really, have you castigated the Democrats and liberals on this board who supported Clinton, the signer of the DOMA? That’s a fairly evil piece of legislation, and a search of your posts does not ever reveal you speaking out against Clinton or Democrats on that point. Are you sure it’s only conservatives who are evil?\* And which party voted in the Senate along with Republicans to not ratify Kyoto - when’s the last time you called out Democrats for that evil? Another search of your posts reveals no such happening. If you’re just biased that’s normal, but at least admit it. I’m biased on many levels politically, although I try to be even and fair when I assign blame or heap praise, I’m sure I make mistakes. I could say Republicans aren’t conservative but that’s a tricky thing to say - they are definitely conservative in some aspects, but not others. Isn’t your beef actually _more_ against the Religious Right, rather than conservatives? Note I don’t say entirely, but more? Because I certainly have a huge beef against the Religious Right, and I don’t know what God Bush believed in anyhow, but more than likely it had a surplus of eyes and tentacles. I also have a huge beef against the Religious Left too - I cringe every time Obama starts his “preaching from the pulpit” to try to out-God the Republicans. - And please, let’s not even attempt the mendacious SDMB argument of “Clinton only did it for political reasons, blah blah etc.” We could very well excuse every single thing Bush did under the same banner. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2010, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/282 "2010-08-06T17:07:13Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > > > The tea party is ‘anti-grownup’? > > Around here it is. Every tea party rally/meeting I’ve been to in Central PA has been essentially like a slightly calmer version of a combination KKK rally and Christian Dominionist meeting–the only coherent points on display are “less taxes!”, “they’re taking our jobs!”, “OMG that not white guy is STILL President?”, and “this is a Christian Nation!”. > > It’s goddamn sad, is what it is. The right-wing in the US remains co-opted by racist and religious elements to a large degree, which means I have the choice of holding my nose and voting Democrat (and getting a guy who doesn’t agree with me on economics) or holding my nose and voting Republican (and getting a reactionary asshole who hates me because I’m not Catholic (yes, I’m referring specifically to Pat Toomey)). Guess which one, as a Buddhist who has a lot of gay friends in committed relationships, I’m going to do. Plenty of those assholes would hate you for BEING Catholic too. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2010, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/283 "2010-08-06T17:08:30Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Of course, if you forget the blowhards and clowns, as **Sam** suggests, their support is an even lower percentage than that. Don’t forget too, the Terminally Stupid. There’s a few of them. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2010, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/284 "2010-08-06T18:16:53Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > > > 😕 What is this “pro-self-defense movement”? > > > > No, let me rephrase that. There is no “pro-self-defense movement.” :dubious: > > Because you say so? Are you channeling Diogenes? > > It’s the heart of the pro-gun movement, but I say pro self-defense because I think the guns are a just a component of it. Arguably the most visible component, but it’s much more than that. Even the NRA says the Second Amendment isn’t about duck hunting. > > I’ve been in _hundreds_ of arguments with anti-gun people on this message board over 10 years, and when it boils down to it perhaps more than 90% of them really are against the right of effective self-defense. I’ve seen all the arguments possible - I’ve got a notebook somewhere of them. > > It’s what I consider a large aspect of conservatism: the individual takes first - not only, not sole - responsibility for their own self-defense. Where hardline conservatives get it wrong is by assuming that the individual has the sole or only responsiblity. We are and live in a Community, and conservatism believes the Community exists for the mutual benefit, health, and welfare of its individuals. But the individuals must step up to the plate, to use a hideous baseball analogy, and have the primary role. > > As opposed to liberalism, which believes the State should have first - not sole, not only - responsibility for your defense. Unfortunately, most liberals I debate with take the hardline view, which is that the State has the sole or only responsibility. The worst case are those who believe that not only should the State be the primary role of defender, but that the police should not be held **both** collectively and individually liable for our defense, thus leaving us helpless on an individual level. That is the worst and frankly most scary version of all. > > I won’t debate it here; if you disagree so be it, and honestly, have a nice weekend. Sounds to me like as much bullshit as calling anti-abortion protesters “Pro-Life” . . . But, leaving that aside, why is it that they’re coming out now for the Tea Party when, as you say, they did not come out in nearly such numbers for the Reform Party? Whatever you say about the current Administration, it has not been distinguished by a gun-control agenda in rhetoric nor in action. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2010, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/285 "2010-08-06T18:22:06Z")
> [@Trans Fat Og](#): > > > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > > > How do you know they’re disproportionately conservative? > > > > **Business has no interest in any political system as such.** > > (bolding added) > > Excuse me, BrainGlutton, but your flat statement frankly sounds meaningless to me. > > (I realize that this is the Pit, but it started out as a GD. So, Pit lovers, please pardon the mild tone. 🙂 ) > > I’ve worked for several small businesses in Upstate NY. The owner-operators would prefer to stay in business (as conservatives apparently would facilitate) rather than lose their businesses (as liberals apparently would let happen). > > Yes, yes, I’m aware of what happened with banks and the stock market, etc., in recent years. I’m just saying that the perception of small business people is that liberal approaches are damning in New York State, and elsewhere. > > And my observation is that this leads them to vote Republican (a “political system”). > > Maybe, though, if you explained what you meant by “as such” I would understand what your thinking is. > > _ **- Jack** _ I mean that businesses, as such, want to make a profit and that’s their whole agenda. Most (not all) would do business with or in a Communist country if that were a practical option, if its goverment allowed it, and if there were a way to do so profitably, and quite regardless of whether that might strengthen the international Communist movement. **Businessmen,** of course, often do have some sort of personal social or political agenda. Henry Ford is a prime example – in fact it has been said that his career was driven more by his sociopolitical ideas than by the profit motive. But mostly it’s the profit motive. A CEO might espouse economic-libertarian rhetoric, but that won’t stop him from hiring Washington lobbyists to preserve whatever un-libertarian regulations or tariffs or subsidies happen to serve his particular corporation’s bottom line. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2010, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/286 "2010-08-06T18:22:59Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > […] why is it that [gun folks]'re coming out now for the Tea Party when, as you say, they did not come out in nearly such numbers for the Reform Party? Not enough hate. Gun nuts don’t get their jollies watching some twit in a tab collar draw charts and talk job growth. They could give a fat wet shit about job growth. They respond best to direct emotional appeal: “THEY’RE TAKING OUR \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ AWAY. FIGHT BACK, LOCK 'N LOAD, HURP DERP!” ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2010, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/287 "2010-08-06T19:42:25Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > > > […] why is it that [gun folks]'re coming out now for the Tea Party when, as you say, they did not come out in nearly such numbers for the Reform Party? > > Not enough hate. > > Gun nuts don’t get their jollies watching some twit in a tab collar draw charts and talk job growth. They could give a fat wet shit about job growth. They respond best to direct emotional appeal: “THEY’RE TAKING OUR \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ AWAY. FIGHT BACK, LOCK 'N LOAD, HURP DERP!” Yeah, uh, as a gun rights supporter and believer in the castle doctrine and expanded carry rights who voted for Obama, why don’t you just eat a bag of dicks when you’re done with that brush. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2010, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/288 "2010-08-06T20:25:00Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Sounds to me like as much bullshit as calling anti-abortion protesters “Pro-Life” . . . But, leaving that aside, Actually, that’s rather hard to leave aside, as leaving it aside seems to deny some pretty hard truths. > [@](#): > > …why is it that they’re coming out now for the Tea Party when, as you say, they did not come out in nearly such numbers for the Reform Party? Because they feel that the Republican Party is their friend only when convenient and “safe” for said Party, is my guess. Sort like the relationship between LGBT folks and the Democrats. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2010, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/289 "2010-08-06T20:45:53Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > > [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > > > Not enough hate. > > > > Gun nuts don’t get their jollies watching some twit in a tab collar draw charts and talk job growth. They could give a fat wet shit about job growth. They respond best to direct emotional appeal: “THEY’RE TAKING OUR \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ AWAY. FIGHT BACK, LOCK 'N LOAD, HURP DERP!” > > Yeah, uh, as a gun rights supporter and believer in the castle doctrine and expanded carry rights who voted for Obama, why don’t you just eat a bag of dicks when you’re done with that brush. Friggn outliers. :rolleyes: Dope’s full of 'em. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2010, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/290 "2010-08-06T20:45:57Z")
OK, so you are a reasonable gun rights supporter. But have you ever met someone you might describe as a “gun nut”? I know they exist, I’m from Texas, and I’ve got some as blood kin. May I have my pulpit, please? Thank you. The enemy is fear, it degrades the mind with extreme efficiency, it destroys the soul quicker than greed. We are offered the need for “self defense” to trump all other concerns, because we are afraid. We are not afraid of foreign invasion, the Canadians seem altogether calm, and disinclined to any hostile acts other than offloading hyper-emotional female singers. We are afraid of each other. So we get a gun, a talisman, an amulet against fear. Without realizing that it embodies fear, it makes fear manifest in an object, and that every time we look at said object, it reminds us of fear, just as any time we look at a crucifix, it reminds of Jesus (or Buffy the Vampire Slayer, depending…) Not good for you. Altering your diet to replace all vegetables with cotton candy is probably better. And believing all that, I still say: enough. The Court has ruled, and the practicality of the situation is impossible. There are millions and millions of guns in America, the prospect of any actual strict control over their sales and distribution is absurd, it can’t be done. Once again, I underline my membership in the Christ Jesus, Just Keep The Fucking Things If They Mean That Much To You, Enough Already! Party. It would be a good thing if political action rendered law might severely curb America’s passionate fixation with firearms. But it ain’t gonna happen, we’ll have to go the slow, long hard way of gradually changing our fellow citizens minds. Its taking a lot longer than we thought, and we could use your help, if you are not too busy. I don’t hate guns, its crazy to hate an object, its a thing, as immune to hate as to humor. I hate fear. And I truly and deeply despise, right down to my shoes, people who promote fear for their political advantage. OK, you can take away the pulpit now. I’m pretty much always preaching, but no need to be so obvious about it all the time. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2010, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/291 "2010-08-06T20:55:43Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > > > Sounds to me like as much bullshit as calling anti-abortion protesters “Pro-Life” . . . But, leaving that aside, > > Actually, that’s rather hard to leave aside, as leaving it aside seems to deny some pretty hard truths. > > > [@](#): > > > > …why is it that they’re coming out now for the Tea Party when, as you say, they did not come out in nearly such numbers for the Reform Party? > > Because they feel that the Republican Party is their friend only when convenient and “safe” for said Party, is my guess. Sort like the relationship between LGBT folks and the Democrats. But, the Tea Party is not a Republican movement as such, so that evades the question: Why are the gun-rights activists mobilized against the status quo now when they were not (to the same degree) in 1992 or '96? ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2010, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/292 "2010-08-06T21:03:16Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > But, the Tea Party is not a Republican movement as such, so that evades the question: Why are the gun-rights activists mobilized against the status quo now when they were not (to the same degree) in 1992 or '96? No, we’re on the same page - I’m saying that back in the 1990’s, 2nd Amendment supporters thought that Republicans were much more on their side than they are now. But they’ve learned that the Republicans are only being conveniently on their side, and the Democrats are out, and the Libertarians have too much of a bad reputation, so what’s left? The Tea Party. That’s just speculation on my part, not fact. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2010, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/293 "2010-08-06T21:03:40Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > > [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > > > Not enough hate. > > > > Gun nuts don’t get their jollies watching some twit in a tab collar draw charts and talk job growth. They could give a fat wet shit about job growth. They respond best to direct emotional appeal: “THEY’RE TAKING OUR \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ AWAY. FIGHT BACK, LOCK 'N LOAD, HURP DERP!” > > Yeah, uh, as a gun rights supporter and believer in the castle doctrine and expanded carry rights who voted for Obama, … I too am a librul, Obama voter, who just happens to be pro-gun. Maybe that paint brush is a bit too wide? Added on edit because we gun nuts are too dumb to remember stuff: I am already on record, as to my very low opinion of the Teabaggers. And yet, I’m generally pro gun and pro 2nd Amendment. Imagine that. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2010, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/294 "2010-08-06T21:11:04Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > OK, so you are a reasonable gun rights supporter. But have you ever met someone you might describe as a “gun nut”? I know they exist, I’m from Texas, and I’ve got some as blood kin. Absolutely, and I’ve posted many times before, too many “law abiding citizens” have guns who should not have them, because they are immature, irresponsible, undiagnosed crazy, unconvicted criminals, or any or all of the above. And I’ve made proposals to deal with these folks, which would result in fewer firearms in Society. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2010, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/295 "2010-08-06T21:38:47Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > And believing all that, I still say: enough. The Court has ruled, and the practicality of the situation is impossible. There are millions and millions of guns in America, the prospect of any actual strict control over their sales and distribution is absurd, it can’t be done. Once again, I underline my membership in the Christ Jesus, Just Keep The Fucking Things If They Mean That Much To You, Enough Already! Party. Me too. I mean, the status quo WRT guns costs more lives than it saves, IMO, but the Republic will not fall because too many citizens are armed. Nor, OTOH, will the Republic fall, or degenerate into a dictatorship, because not **enough** citizens are armed. If you think whether you are allowed to keep firearms has any **political** significance, you are an idiot, but a mostly harmless one. If your idea of armed “self-defense” means against not only criminals but against the police, you are something worse than an idiot, but no existential thread to nuttin’. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2010, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/296 "2010-08-06T22:07:55Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > In other words, claiming to be a good conservative is like claiming to be a good member of the KKK; joining the KKK and claiming to not be a racist doesn’t make the KKK any less racist, or excuse you from responsibility for the results of supporting them. Keep talking, Fred. You’re a fucking bigot. ---
**Author:** ![ManiacMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b782af/32.png) [@ManiacMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ManiacMan)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2010, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/297 "2010-08-07T00:20:00Z")
> [@The\_Facts](#): > > > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > > > You’re a Republican? > > Some of us have _reasons_ to hate. Like evil. You sound pretty evil yourself… ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2010, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/298 "2010-08-07T04:17:09Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Absolutely, and I’ve posted many times before, too many “law abiding citizens” have guns who should not have them, because they are immature, irresponsible, undiagnosed crazy, unconvicted criminals, or any or all of the above. And I’ve made proposals to deal with these folks, which would result in fewer firearms in Society. Admittedly, there are a lot of fucknuts with guns and podiums out there, but it’s an uphill battle. (taking longer than we thought) > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Me too. I mean, the status quo WRT guns costs more lives than it saves, IMO, but the Republic will not fall because too many citizens are armed. > > Nor, OTOH, will the Republic fall, or degenerate into a dictatorship, because not **enough** citizens are armed. If you think whether you are allowed to keep firearms has any **political** significance, you are an idiot, but a mostly harmless one. If your idea of armed “self-defense” means against not only criminals but against the police, you are something worse than an idiot, but no existential thread to nuttin’. Totally agree with this one too–the police are 95%+ good guys, and that’s a fact, and there’s no realistic scenario where the US is going to degenerate into a dictatorship. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2010, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/299 "2010-08-07T04:21:49Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > This is the stuff of nonsense. It’s like something a high-schooler would write an hour after the first time they skronqued a hippie. > **[Google Search](https://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=navclient&gfns=1&q=skronqued)** ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2010, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/300 "2010-08-07T08:07:32Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > > In other words, claiming to be a good conservative is like claiming to be a good member of the KKK; joining the KKK and claiming to not be a racist doesn’t make the KKK any less racist, or excuse you from responsibility for the results of supporting them. > > Keep talking, Fred. You’re a fucking bigot. If I’m Fred, then you are Hitler. I have just as much basis to compare you to Hitler as you have to compare me to Fred. Funny how it’s only liberals who get called bigots for daring to disapprove of other political positions… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524.md?page=16)