# "We need conservatives" why? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 29, 2010, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524 "2010-07-29T23:44:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2010, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/81 "2010-07-30T03:42:55Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Even theoretically speaking, the optimal point on the political continuum is probably not “as far to the left as you can possibly get”. FTR, the political map is a lot more complicated than a left-to-right continuum. More complicated even than the [Nolan Chart](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nolan_chart) or the [Pournelle Chart](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pournelle_chart) can adequately express. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2010, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/82 "2010-07-30T03:44:04Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > > [@The\_Facts](#): > > > > > [@boytyperanma](#): > > > > > > > [@The\_Facts](#): > > > > > > > > What is the social value of conservatives? Are they Doctors? Teachers? Social workers? So far as I can see, they are none of these things. But they are trust fund inheritors, millionaires, TV preachers and other parasites … am I wrong? > > > > > > Yes you’re wrong. Conservatives can be found as Doctors, Teachers and Social workers just as you can find liberal trust fund inheritors, millionaires and TV preachers. > > > > > > Your looking to have a debate great but you seem only willing to have that debate with someone willing to take your stereotypes as facts. You are dishonest. > > > > :rolleyes: > > > > We’re talking proportions. Yes, there are conservatives that have social value, but most do not. What socially useful group is disproprtionaltely conservative? What would we lose if they all choked to death on a pretzel tomorrow? Their net contribution is negative. > > How about business owners, including small business owners that which happen to provide a lot of crucial employment. How do you know they’re disproportionately conservative? Business has no interest in any political system as such. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2010, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/83 "2010-07-30T03:46:11Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > OK, I’ll bite. > > Conservatives are right on Affirmative Action and Liberals are wrong. Each person should be treated as an individual, equal before the law. No preferential treatment by the law for anyone. Interesting take on AA I heard somewhere recently. The person argued that college admissions and scholarship aid for the disadvantaged shouldn’t be determined based on AA categories but rather solely on economic need. Let the poor kids of whatever ethnicity get the leg up. Minority status shouldn’t give an advantage to children, say, of middle-class parents. The person argued that a disproportionate number of said poor kids would in fact be minorities, but that if economic need were the sole determinant it would go a long way toward defusing resentment of AA. Dunno if I buy that argument, but it’s an interesting take on the question. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2010, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/84 "2010-07-30T03:52:22Z")
Conservatives are needed. Traditional values didn’t just pop into being one day. They became tradition by having merit. Conservatives remind us of that merit. But life is not static. Sometimes old ideas lose their merit. Sometimes a new idea is possible which is better than an old idea. Liberals exist to push forward the new ideas. But not all new ideas are good. A lot of them are worse than the existing way of doing things. If there were no liberals, conservatives would try to stop all change. If there were no conservatives, liberals would try to change everything. Both systems would fail. The best system is when both sides have to compete to demonstrate the merits of their view. The conservatives call for maintaining the ideas that have been proven to work against the liberals’ untested theories. The liberals call for progress and innovation rather then living in the past like the conservatives. Hopefully, the result is that instead of picking an idea because it’s old or it’s new, we pick an idea because it’s good. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2010, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/85 "2010-07-30T04:21:31Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Conservatives are needed. Smart conservatives are needed. Chuckleheads on both sides of the divide are unhelpful. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2010, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/86 "2010-07-30T04:23:48Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > How do you know they’re disproportionately conservative? > > Business has no interest in any political system as such. I don’t. I’ve personally found that many business owners including small business owners tend to prefer the conservative approach of fewer restrictions, taxes and hoops to jump through. They tend to be more conservative financially. That;s not to say these same people can’t hold more progressive views on social issues. Would you say business owners tend to be more Conservative financially? I’d be very surprised to discover that business owners in general are more liberal than conservative but even if it’s dead even, the ridiculous contention that we could lose conservatives and not be harmed at all is disproved. Conservatives make up a broad spectrum of valuable vocations across the country. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2010, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/87 "2010-07-30T04:24:56Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > > > Conservatives are needed. > > Smart conservatives are needed. Chuckleheads on both sides of the divide are unhelpful. you mean like the chucklehead who started this thread? I agree btw. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2010, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/88 "2010-07-30T04:45:35Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > > > Conservatives are needed. > > Smart conservatives are needed. Chuckleheads on both sides of the divide are unhelpful. I try to assume the best - that they’re just very passionate in their beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2010, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/89 "2010-07-30T05:09:59Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > You need us mean and nasty conservatives to protect all the candy assed liberals from things that go bump in the night. No, mostly the conservatives ARE the things that go bump in the night. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > > [@The\_Facts](#): > > > > Name one issue that conservatives have ever been right about. I’ll wait. > > Market economies? That’s not an especially conservative position. Conservatives aren’t for “market economies”; they are for neo-feudalism. Lords and serfs. > [@kingbighair](#): > > > [@The\_Facts](#): > > > > Name one issue that conservatives have ever been right about. I’ll wait. > > Not overextending America’s financial obligations. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > OK, I’ll bite. > > Conservatives are right on Affirmative Action and Liberals are wrong. Each person should be treated as an individual, equal before the law. No preferential treatment by the law for anyone. Arguments like this would make better defenses of conservatism if conservatives actually meant it. Conservatives spend like money was water and they are pro-bigotry not pro-equality. Conservatives aren’t interested in conserving things any more than the People’s Republic of China is run by the people. Someone who conserves, isn’t a conservative. Conservatives are about wild self indulgence, reshaping society to fit their ideology and the exploitation of others, not about conserving anything. > [@Sinaijon](#): > > > [@The\_Facts](#): > > > > Name one issue that conservatives have ever been right about. I’ll wait. > > Eugenics. No, they were FOR that. Many still are. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2010, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/90 "2010-07-30T05:16:51Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No, they were FOR that. Many still are. Margaret Sanger was a conservative? Huh. ---
**Author:** ![GHO57](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/df788c/32.png) [@GHO57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GHO57)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2010, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/91 "2010-07-30T05:21:15Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > > No, they were FOR that. Many still are. > > Margaret Sanger was a conservative? > > Huh. I think he’s using a different definition of “conservative”… see the claim that people who conserve are not conservatives. And based on the post… it’s apparently one that says; conservative=any person, or idea that I personally don’t like. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2010, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/92 "2010-07-30T05:28:41Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > > No, they were FOR that. Many still are. > > Margaret Sanger was a conservative? Did I say that conservatives were the only ones in favor of it? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2010, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/93 "2010-07-30T05:30:29Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The best system is when both sides have to compete to demonstrate the merits of their view. That would work just as well if American politics were mainly liberals vs. socialists. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2010, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/94 "2010-07-30T05:32:33Z")
> [@GHO57](#): > > I think he’s using a different definition of “conservative”… see the claim that people who conserve are not conservatives. And based on the post… it’s apparently one that says; conservative=any person, or idea that I personally don’t like. No; my definition is that conservatives are the actual people who call themselves conservative. Not some idealized “conservatives” who don’t exist and never have. ---
**Author:** ![GHO57](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/df788c/32.png) [@GHO57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GHO57)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2010, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/95 "2010-07-30T05:35:24Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > > > The best system is when both sides have to compete to demonstrate the merits of their view. > > That would work just as well if American politics were mainly liberals vs. socialists. I think he (or she) was thinking in sociological terms, not political. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2010, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/96 "2010-07-30T06:56:03Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > That would work just as well if American politics were mainly liberals vs. socialists. Which of them represents traditional values? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2010, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/97 "2010-07-30T07:22:54Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > > > The best system is when both sides have to compete to demonstrate the merits of their view. > > That would work just as well if American politics were mainly liberals vs. socialists. But American politics has to reflect the American public, and the American public consists of more than liberals and socialists. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2010, 8:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/98 "2010-07-30T08:49:33Z")
> [@The\_Facts](#): > > > [@kingbighair](#): > > > > Because not every liberal idea is always correct and absolute power corrupts absolutely. > > Name one issue that conservatives have ever been right about. I’ll wait. Thalidomide, that was easy. ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2010, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/99 "2010-07-30T10:08:04Z")
> [@The\_Facts](#): > > > [@kingbighair](#): > > > > Because not every liberal idea is always correct and absolute power corrupts absolutely. > > Name one issue that conservatives have ever been right about. I’ll wait. [Social welfare and universal healthcare](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_von_Bismarck#Bismarck.27s_social_legislation). ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2010, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/100 "2010-07-30T10:15:27Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > > [@The\_Facts](#): > > > > Name one issue that conservatives have ever been right about. I’ll wait. > > Thalidomide, that was easy. Considering that they are the people who oppose any attempt to regulate businesses including medical ones, I’d hardly give them credit for opposing a disaster they are trying to recreate. Assuming they actually did oppose thalidomide, and also assuming they did so for the right reasons; taking the right position in spite of your intentions is hardly an endorsement. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524.md?page=6)