# "We need conservatives" why? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 29, 2010, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524 "2010-07-29T23:44:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2010, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/141 "2010-07-30T16:35:55Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > How about you go ask the PIIGS how they are doing with fiscal liberals running the show for the past few years. Maybe take a tour of the UK on your way back, then see how California and New York are doing before heading over to DC. Do you have any idea who has run up almost all of our debt? Republicans. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2010, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/142 "2010-07-30T16:37:52Z")
> [@The\_Facts](#): > > > [@tomndebb](#): > > > > > [@kingbighair](#): > > > > > > Christ, the partisanship on this board is astounding. > > > > Actually, it is just tedious. > > > > Ill considered silliness such as the OP tends to bring out the worst on both sides, of course. I am not persuaded that the majority of posters are mindless partisans, but it is certainly true that there are enough loud partisans to keep this sort of thread on the front page of the forum for long periods of time. > > I am looking for an honest debate. Don’t blame me because nobody has an argument? > > What is the social value of conservatives? Are they Doctors? Teachers? Social workers? So far as I can see, they are none of these things. But they are trust fund inheritors, millionaires, TV preachers and other parasites … am I wrong? Most doctors i know are conservatives. Almost all of them are “small businessmen” that want to deduct everything from the cars they drive to the vacations they take. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2010, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/143 "2010-07-30T16:39:47Z")
> [@The\_Facts](#): > > We’re talking proportions. Yes, there are conservatives that have social value, but most do not. What socially useful group is disproprtionaltely conservative? What would we lose if they all choked to death on a pretzel tomorrow? Their net contribution is negative. Well, aside from doctors, I am would guess that most soldiers, policemen and firefighters are conservative. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2010, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/144 "2010-07-30T16:46:27Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Did you read the rest of the thread? Most of it is liberals calling out the OP. So? I’m not addressing anyone but the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2010, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/145 "2010-07-30T16:52:33Z")
Well, okay, but you’re wasting your time. While we’re on the subject of good conservative ideas: keeping our for-profit healthcare system is a horrible idea. However, such as it is, the health savings account/high deductible health insurance plan is a pretty good idea. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2010, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/146 "2010-07-30T16:56:23Z")
> [@The\_Facts](#): > > I don’t understand your point at all. Why are low-flow toilets a bad thing? Because the technology for low flush toilets wasn’t really there yet so you ended up with a bunch of toilets that didn’t work very well if you had a little fiber in your diet. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2010, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/147 "2010-07-30T16:58:20Z")
Liberal moonbat here. Here’s why I think we need (intelligent, principled, public-minded) conservatives: 1. To throw some weight behind freedom in the never-ending push-pull between perfect freedom and perfect justice. We can’t ever have either, but _some_ kind of freedom and _some_ kind of justice we must always pursue, and must always negotiate between the two. 2. To speak up for civil liberties that liberals don’t always consider worth preserving. Whatever you think of things like religion and guns, do you really want them legislated right out of the common life? What kind of society would that make us? 3. We have a lot of bloody-minded wingnuts, driven by fear and myth, who act as a cancer on Americans’ common polity and mutual good will. Liberals may never reach them. Unless intelligent, principled, public-minded conservatives (helloooo, John Dean?) can manage to start some sort of dialogue with them, the cancer will only keep growing. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2010, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/148 "2010-07-30T17:00:52Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > Whatever you think of things like religion and guns, do you really want them legislated right out of the common life? What kind of society would that make us? I guess that depends. What does mainstream religion offer that tarot reading (for example) doesn’t? ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2010, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/149 "2010-07-30T17:14:02Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > > [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > > > Whatever you think of things like religion and guns, do you really want them legislated right out of the common life? What kind of society would that make us? > > I guess that depends. What does mainstream religion offer that tarot reading (for example) doesn’t? I’m thinking more of the precedent - not legal, but the social what-if. We need some level of “leave well enough alone.” Since you asked: local charity and outreach are pretty swell, and religious bodies seem to be pretty ready to engage in them. Not that a clutch of tarot readers couldn’t get together to build section 8 housing or start a food bank, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2010, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/150 "2010-07-30T17:16:42Z")
The social what-if is exactly my point. Tarot card readers pay taxes. Why shouldn’t churches? ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2010, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/151 "2010-07-30T17:23:06Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The social what-if is exactly my point. Tarot card readers pay taxes. Why shouldn’t churches? Well, then, your point is more the _financial_ what-if than the social. Not to start yet another fiscal line of thought here, but would a nonprofit tarot club have to pay taxes? How about if they were organized for charitable work? ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2010, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/152 "2010-07-30T17:27:04Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > > > How about you go ask the PIIGS how they are doing with fiscal liberals running the show for the past few years. Maybe take a tour of the UK on your way back, then see how California and New York are doing before heading over to DC. > > Do you have any idea who has run up almost all of our debt? Republicans. LBJ was the first one who threw a war without asking anyone to pay for it through any type of sacrifice. Neither party has ever cut spending, and both play games with taxes. I am a registered Republican, call myself a libertarian, fiscal conservative and social “get-the-fuck-off-of-my-lawn” person. I should be allowed to shoot, fuck, eat, drink or smoke whatever the hell I want. I should be able to put a well on my property without needing to go to 7 different agencies - and this is in Montana. Conservatives look at the regulatory landscape and wonder how the hell anyone is able to get a business started. I should be able to open a business, employ people, and generate revenue as fast as possible. I think that the OECD ranking of the US here is an example of challenges in our nation: [https://community.oecd.org/community/factblog/blog/tags/comparison](https://community.oecd.org/community/factblog/blog/tags/comparison) I consider the index of Economic Freedom to be one of the key goals of a nation: [http://www.heritage.org/index/TopTen.aspx](http://www.heritage.org/index/TopTen.aspx) Conservatives (in our kilts with the bagpipes playing) think that everyone should be able to start their own business with minimal roadblocks from government. Conservatives think that schools should focus on the basics, until they get that part right. Conservatives think that criminals should be punished. Conservatives still dominate the leadership of the military (protecting us from things that go bump in the night), though they no longer all register Republican: [http://www.navytimes.com/news/2010/04/military\_poll\_advance\_041110w/](http://www.navytimes.com/news/2010/04/military_poll_advance_041110w/) > [@](#): > > An exclusive survey of some 1,800 active-duty troops shows the percentage of self-identified Republicans has decreased by one-third since 2004, from 60 percent to 41 percent, while the percentage of self-identified independents has nearly doubled to 32 percent during the same period. These career-oriented officers and mid-grade and senior enlisted members are still far more conservative than liberal, but they are less likely today to identify with the GOP, the survey shows. Conservatives believe in giving to charity, in working locally rather than through the government. They give more of their income than liberals. [http://pdberger.com/republicans-give-a-bigger-share-of-their-incomes-to-charity-says-a-prominent-economist/](http://pdberger.com/republicans-give-a-bigger-share-of-their-incomes-to-charity-says-a-prominent-economist/) With all that - having liberals is also critical. You need liberals to keep some business regulations in place while you also need conservatives to let people use their private property as they see fit. The two sides work well together. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2010, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/153 "2010-07-30T17:30:49Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > > [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > > > Whatever you think of things like religion and guns, do you really want them legislated right out of the common life? What kind of society would that make us? > > I guess that depends. What does mainstream religion offer that tarot reading (for example) doesn’t? I don’t know what tarot reading provides (only having had it done once at a party), but religion in general and religious organizations provide the following: Community organization Charitable assistance (scratch a soup kitchen or a homeless shelter and you will find a LOT of religious people working, supporting, donating, running, etc.) Moral teachings (yes - in some cases taken to the extreme) Education Child care ETA - there are also some pretty liberal churches out there too ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2010, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/154 "2010-07-30T19:00:21Z")
We need conservatives, what we got are reactionaries. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2010, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/155 "2010-07-30T19:10:43Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > We need conservatives, what we got are reactionaries. Or theocrats wrapped in the “conservative” label, those are popular too. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2010, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/156 "2010-07-30T19:17:18Z")
Conservative ideology is hateful. Thus, I don’t think we need any of them around, ever. Moderates will not be the new conservative because they are less likely to go around shooting people they disagree with or vandalizing opposing party’s offices ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2010, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/157 "2010-07-30T19:27:52Z")
I have no problem with protecting America. But some Conservatives need to remember what a bump in the night means. It means “I heard a noise” not “There’s a confirmed danger”. Don’t invent threats just to justify having power. You’re protecting me from the threat of Soviet nuclear weapons and Al Qaeda terrorists? My sincere thanks. You’re protecting me from Mexican farm workers and gay people who want to get married? Relax. I’m safe. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2010, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/158 "2010-07-30T19:37:42Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > I should be able to open a business, employ people, and generate revenue as fast as possible. I think that the OECD ranking of the US here is an example of challenges in our nation: > [https://community.oecd.org/community/factblog/blog/tags/comparison](https://community.oecd.org/community/factblog/blog/tags/comparison) Presumably you don’t understand the part of the graph that shows the US has among the lowest regulatory and administrative burdens on start-ups in the countries surveyed. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2010, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/159 "2010-07-30T19:57:03Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > > [@Algher](#): > > > > I should be able to open a business, employ people, and generate revenue as fast as possible. I think that the OECD ranking of the US here is an example of challenges in our nation: > > [https://community.oecd.org/community/factblog/blog/tags/comparison](https://community.oecd.org/community/factblog/blog/tags/comparison) > > Presumably you don’t understand the part of the graph that shows the US has among the lowest regulatory and administrative burdens on start-ups in the countries surveyed. Presumably you don’t understand that there are 3 colors in the graph, and while the US is doing great by comparison with how easy it is to understand regulations (Regulatory and Administrative Opacity), we could still find room to reduce Barriers to Competition (defined in this particular graph as “regulations that block newcomers from providing telecoms, electricity, gas and postal services, and rules that may encourage monopolies and cartels.”). Administrative burdens (the third color) looks OK, but other nations are able to do it with less. See, conservatives look at the entire picture when it comes to business, instead of just little chunks. This is also why I clinked to TWO reports that look at this subject. The UK, the Dutch and the Swedes all seem to beat us on this - I want to be in their bracket. In fact, I want to help other nations be in their bracket too. If we could help Mexico do the same, entrepreneurship would help that nation and would reduce the need for the US to be an overflow valve for workers. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2010, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/160 "2010-07-30T21:13:45Z")
Well, you got us there, **Algher**. Hell, I can’t even count the number of times I got together with fellow lefties and all we can talk about is how to stifle this wretched, awful entrepreneurship! Nothing makes us seethe with rage more than small businessmen. Unless, of course, its big businessmen, what with their endless efforts to encourage people to start up businesses that compete with their own. Lordy, they never stop when it comes to trying to cut thier sales. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524.md?page=9)