# "We need conservatives" why? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 29, 2010, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524 "2010-07-29T23:44:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2010, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/161 "2010-07-30T21:25:21Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Well, you got us there, **Algher**. Hell, I can’t even count the number of times I got together with fellow lefties and all we can talk about is how to stifle this wretched, awful entrepreneurship! Nothing makes us seethe with rage more than small businessmen. Unless, of course, its big businessmen, what with their endless efforts to encourage people to start up businesses that compete with their own. Lordy, they never stop when it comes to trying to cut thier sales. I did not say that the Liberals were anti-business (or did not mean to). I do think that the Liberals will pass various well-meaning regulations without thinking about the impact, however. They will also keep adding regulations in multiple areas, multiple divisions, and multiple government agencies until we have a system where it takes more and more time to do something simple. I am sure that taken individually, each new rule or regulation came with good intentions. However, once every rule and regulation is in place - you stop making things better. 5+ inspections (and 3 agencies) to put in a handicapped ramp. Had to pay for each and every one of them. Sometimes two agencies would have rules that were in conflict with each other. 5+ agencies to take recycled oil at a service station. Was not worth it, though it was the right thing to do. In this case, the good intentions of safety conflicted with the good intentions of oil recycling. The conservatives are there to look at the small business picture so that people can have jobs, while the liberals are there to keep us from dumping used motor oil in the gutter. Both sides are necessary. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaijon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Sinaijon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaijon)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2010, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/162 "2010-07-30T22:44:29Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > > [@Sinaijon](#): > > > > > [@The\_Facts](#): > > > > > > Name one issue that conservatives have ever been right about. I’ll wait. > > > > Eugenics > > Wait, what? 😕 Eugenics was a progressive idea in the past that is pretty much universally reviled now. The OP evidently hasn’t given up on the notion. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2010, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/163 "2010-07-30T23:12:10Z")
Sadly, **Sinaijon** , a lot of Progressives just dropepd calling what they wanted Eugenics, but still held many of the same opinions after WW2. It certainly affected many Liberal policies and does so to this day. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2010, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/164 "2010-07-30T23:26:34Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Sadly, **Sinaijon** , a lot of Progressives just dropepd calling what they wanted Eugenics, but still held many of the same opinions after WW2. It certainly affected many Liberal policies and does so to this day. As opposed to conservatives, who proudly recount the days when their man ran for president on a segregationist’s platform and openly consider brown people to be invaders ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2010, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/165 "2010-07-30T23:30:37Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > > [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > > > Sadly, **Sinaijon** , a lot of Progressives just dropepd calling what they wanted Eugenics, but still held many of the same opinions after WW2. It certainly affected many Liberal policies and does so to this day. > > As opposed to conservatives, who proudly recount the days when their man ran for president on a segregationist’s platform and openly consider brown people to be invaders All conservatives, everywhere, do that? Who knew. Ignorance fought. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2010, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/166 "2010-07-31T00:31:45Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > > [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > > > Sadly, **Sinaijon** , a lot of Progressives just dropepd calling what they wanted Eugenics, but still held many of the same opinions after WW2. It certainly affected many Liberal policies and does so to this day. > > As opposed to conservatives, who proudly recount the days when their man ran for president on a segregationist’s platform and openly consider brown people to be invaders Yeah, that Lincoln was a nasty guy, wasn’t he? Yep, Democrats never got over that one. I mean, this is the group of Lefties who mourn the passing of a certain Democratic Senator from The Klan, while covering and making up all kinds of nonsense to cover for it. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2010, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/167 "2010-07-31T00:52:35Z")
> [@The\_Facts](#): > > So why should we have any of them around? And before someone gets their panties in a knot, no, I’m not calling for all conservatives to be killed. I know there’s no practical way of making it come true, this is just hypothetical here. But the fact remains that you want it to happen. Let’s try this: how about, instead of asking: \*\*“We need conservatives” why? \*\* let’s ask " **“We need people who want conservatives dead” why?** And before someone gets their panties in a knot, no, I’m not calling for all people who want conservatives dead to be killed. I know there’s no practical way of making it come true, this is just hypothetical here. Now, asshole - how does that make you feel, to be part of a group that someone has posted an irrational hate message about? Actually, it probably doesn’t bother you, because you know that I’m not so fucked up as to advocate wholesale death like that. I don’t know that about you. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2010, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/168 "2010-07-31T00:55:32Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > > [@YogSosoth](#): > > > > > [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > > > > > Sadly, **Sinaijon** , a lot of Progressives just dropepd calling what they wanted Eugenics, but still held many of the same opinions after WW2. It certainly affected many Liberal policies and does so to this day. > > > > As opposed to conservatives, who proudly recount the days when their man ran for president on a segregationist’s platform and openly consider brown people to be invaders > > Yeah, that Lincoln was a nasty guy, wasn’t he? Yep, Democrats never got over that one. I mean, this is the group of Lefties who mourn the passing of a certain Democratic Senator from The Klan, while covering and making up all kinds of nonsense to cover for it. Well, in fairness to Democrats and Liberals, it’s rather hard to compare the political ideology of a Republican from the 1860’s with Republicans of even 100 years _ex post facto_. The same could be said of original Democrats versus Carter-era Dixiecrats versus the “asshole Democrats” of Clinton. Of course I’ve never read a biography of Lincoln to know all the details of his political philosophy, although this week on a plane I did finish _Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter_, so I definitely know his opinion on the undead. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2010, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/169 "2010-07-31T01:42:18Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I have no problem with protecting America. But some Conservatives need to remember what a bump in the night means. It means “I heard a noise” not “There’s a confirmed danger”. Don’t invent threats just to justify having power. > > You’re protecting me from the threat of Soviet nuclear weapons and Al Qaeda terrorists? My sincere thanks. You’re protecting me from Mexican farm workers and gay people who want to get married? Relax. I’m safe. Unless he is in the military or is somehow connected with the government, he isn’t doing jack shit. ---
**Author:** ![3trew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/3/13edae/32.png) [@3trew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/3trew)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2010, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/170 "2010-07-31T08:02:42Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > > > I have no problem with protecting America. But some Conservatives need to remember what a bump in the night means. It means “I heard a noise” not “There’s a confirmed danger”. Don’t invent threats just to justify having power. > > > > You’re protecting me from the threat of Soviet nuclear weapons and Al Qaeda terrorists? My sincere thanks. You’re protecting me from Mexican farm workers and gay people who want to get married? Relax. I’m safe. > > Unless he is in the military or is somehow connected with the government, he isn’t doing jack shit. Thank God. (This becomes ironic shortly) I’d really rather prefer it if fewer people were trying to protect me from the non-whites, and the muslims, and the atheists, and the illegals, and the gay marriage, and the feminists, and the communazi whatever the fuck Fox is blathering about right now. Of course, as Mr. Cheney demonstrated, you needn’t be in the military if you have other priorities at the time, and voting seems to me to be sufficient connection to the government as to be significant. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2010, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/171 "2010-07-31T09:00:54Z")
To answer the OP: to challenge the progressives when they go too far. There is actual value in maintaining the status quo rather than always looking for new solutions. Sometimes you are better off not changing. Now to read the thread… Uh, something conservatism was right about? Well, the OP (and Der Trihs) define conservatives as people who disagree with them, like Fox conservatives do to liberals, so there couldn’t be anything. Except for the fact that conservatives and liberals often agree on a lot of things. Still, if Zeriel is a conservative, then so am I. However, seeing as I define the words I use by how the people I’m talking to will interpret them, I definitely call myself liberal, with a bit of a socialist bend. (I’d actually support “each according to his need,” but but who want and can get more can have it. I’d love to have a basic standard that no one in the U.S. is allowed to drop below–one that is both humane and undesirable at the same time.) ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2010, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/172 "2010-07-31T11:11:42Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Well, the OP (and Der Trihs) define conservatives as people who disagree with them, I do not define conservatives as people who disagree with me. Have I called Stalin a conservative? No, and he disagrees with me. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2010, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/173 "2010-07-31T12:42:02Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > [@BigT](#): > > > > Well, the OP (and Der Trihs) define conservatives as people who disagree with them, > > I do not define conservatives as people who disagree with me. Have I called Stalin a conservative? No, and he disagrees with me. No, he didn’t. Stalin wanted to kill everyone who disagreed with him. So do you. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2010, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/174 "2010-07-31T14:24:58Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Yeah, that Lincoln was a nasty guy, wasn’t he? Yep, Democrats never got over that one. I mean, this is the group of Lefties who mourn the passing of a certain Democratic Senator from The Klan, while covering and making up all kinds of nonsense to cover for it. Lincoln was about as liberal a president as there was back then. He fought the South, didn’t kowtow to it, and freeing the slaves is about a hundred degrees more liberal than the Civil Rights Act, the signing of which turned the Republicans against the Democrats for decades. Your ideology has always been to kick the little guy, the brown guy, and the woman in the teeth. Deep down, you know it too, that’s why Republicans revere Reagan and hardly ever mention Lincoln ---
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2010, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/175 "2010-07-31T15:11:39Z")
I don’t agree with Conservatives on most issues but the problem isn’t Conservatism in general. Liberalism needs something to push against for it to remain a healthy world view. The problem is Authoritarian Conservatism (AC). AC really does have no value in a society and in fact is a determent (the more of it you have, the worse a society functions). Unfortunately, it seems that the line between AC and Conservatism in general is getting more and more blurred which brings us to today’s Republican Party. It is worthless. I am not saying everyone who calls themself one is worthless but the GOP as a whole is. They have proven they cannot govern and as a minority party, their only action has been to actively hurt this country through inaction and negative actions not because they have some kind of principle but because they hope it will help them gain back control. Show me a party that has a value other than “I want to win elections” and I will agree Republicans have a place. And spare me the “Dem’s are just as bad!” Look at the farce the GOP has turned The US Senate into and tell me both sides are equally in the wrong there. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2010, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/176 "2010-07-31T15:21:34Z")
> [@Quimby](#): > > I don’t agree with Conservatives on most issues but the problem isn’t Conservatism in general. Liberalism needs something to push against for it to remain a healthy world view. The problem is Authoritarian Conservatism (AC). AC really does have no value in a society and in fact is a determent (the more of it you have, the worse a society functions). > > Unfortunately, it seems that the line between AC and Conservatism in general is getting more and more blurred which brings us to today’s Republican Party. It is worthless. I am not saying everyone who calls themself one is worthless but the GOP as a whole is. They have proven they cannot govern and as a minority party, their only action has been to actively hurt this country through inaction and negative actions not because they have some kind of principle but because they hope it will help them gain back control. > > Show me a party that has a value other than “I want to win elections” and I will agree Republicans have a place. And spare me the “Dem’s are just as bad!” Look at the farce the GOP has turned The US Senate into and tell me both sides are equally in the wrong there. The Democrats aren’t just as bad. But it’s foolish to think they lack the potential to become just as bad. The current Conservative Republican movement went bad because it became too powerful. It thought it could rule without worrying about any opposition, either from within or from outside the party. If the OP got his wish and all conservatives disappeared, within ten years the unchecked liberals would be just as bad as the conservatives are now. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2010, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/177 "2010-07-31T15:22:47Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > …so I definitely know his opinion on the undead. He was a stake-holder. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2010, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/178 "2010-07-31T17:26:16Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The Democrats aren’t just as bad. But it’s foolish to think they lack the potential to become just as bad. The current Conservative Republican movement went bad because it became too powerful. It thought it could rule without worrying about any opposition, either from within or from outside the party. I partially disagree. That certainly didn’t help, but I think the most important reason they have become so bad is that they decided to rely so much on the worst parts of the Right. You don’t see the Democrats sucking up to the rabid extremist leftist fringe. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2010, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/179 "2010-07-31T21:46:59Z")
> [@The\_Facts](#): > > In my last thread, I asked for people to give me any reason to think that society wouldn’t be better off without the teabaggers. Some people huffed and puffed at that, but nobody could actually give me any reason those people have net value to society, so I think my point there is proved. > > Several people in that thread, including some who I suppose fancy themselves progressive, offered up that while teabaggers are useless dregs, society needs conservatives. I’ve heard this before, that we need “good” conservatives, and I don’t buy it. Don’t sell me shit like “some people have a principled stand for limited government” or some theoretical shit. If you are a republican in 2010, it means you hate people different from you (race, class, gender, sexual orientation) and think they deserve to be second-class citizens, it means you are a anti-woman, it means you are a religious freak, and it means you want poor people to stay poor. Let’s drop the pussyfooting. These are the people that are trying to hinder us, who are trying to take us back to the stone age. > > So why should we have any of them around? And before someone gets their panties in a knot, no, I’m not calling for all conservatives to be killed. I know there’s no practical way of making it come true, this is just hypothetical here. If every conservative disappeared tomorrow, in a puff of smoke, why wouldn’t that be a good thing? > > (Yes, I know some people would be sad for their family or whatever … I’m asking about society as a whole.) Serious debate only. In certain societies conservatives can be useful. The Mensheviks were more ‘conservative’ (less to the left) than the bolskeviks. Had they won and kept power things would’ve been much better in Russia. By and large though, I do agree that the contemporary conservative movement in the US have become a tool for oligarchy, plutocracy and various forms of backwardness. Throw in the hostility towards science, pragmitism, integrity/honesty and egalitarianism that the contemporary leaders show so often, and I really can’t think of anything truly good they contribute to society (good being my definition of good). Even Barry Goldwater, who was once considered too conservative and radical to deserve to run the country in 1964, was disgusted by the conservatives of the 1990s and how radical/backwards/authoritarian they are. The sad part is that the conservatives of the 1990s are moderate compared to the Palin and Beck breed that exist now. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2010, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524/180 "2010-07-31T22:00:31Z")
I am a conservative in the tradition of Edmund Burke in that I am pessimistic about human nature and human potential, and I am skeptical about the value of rapid social changes. Unfortunately, what passes for conservatism in the United States is often little more than hostility to taxes, regulation of business, and gun control laws. It combines seventeenth century Protestant religious dogma with nineteenth century laissez faire economic theory and the politie bigotry of the country club. The message of the Tea Party is that the government should do nothing to help the unemployed. I see nothing of value in the Tea Party at all. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-conservatives-why/548524.md?page=10)