# We need to call out inherent racism in explicit terms **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 13, 2014, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083 "2014-12-13T01:40:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2014, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/201 "2014-12-17T21:04:57Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Then no one in Hollywood makes real art then. I would not argue with that. 🙂 But rather than get stuck on whether this stuff is art or not, let’s just call it entertainment. I just chafe at the idea that all art, and every aspect of art, has to be considered political. That’s a burden I would never place on an actual artist, and if I were an artist, I’d rebel against that notion with every political bone in my body. So, that’s leaves us with the entertainment found in movies and whether those who make them have an obligation not to just explicitly not discriminate (no way am I hiring any black people for my movie) but also to affirmative be inclusive. I’m not convinced that the latter is a burden that can legitimately be placed on a movie maker. I could not, in good conscience, call Scott a bad person for what he has done. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2014, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/202 "2014-12-17T21:16:43Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > When blond-haired, blue-eyes Charleton Heston was cast in the same role, wasn’t that “contributing to racist trends”? I certainly think it was. Was Elizabeth Taylor, Michael Jackson’s bestie, racist for portraying Cleopatra? ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2014, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/203 "2014-12-17T21:16:47Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I just chafe at the idea that all art, and every aspect of art, has to be considered political. That’s a burden I would never place on an actual artist… There _are_ other, not illegitimate ways to approach and understand art (or entertainment). But the political implications are still _there_, whether recognized or not. Just as, say, aesthetics are still an aspect of design, or environmental impact is an aspect of agriculture, whether engineers or farmers care to notice or not. You can’t do _anything_ that interacts with the world and other people without there being secondary implications. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2014, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/204 "2014-12-17T21:18:04Z")
**John Mace:** I don’t understand how you can frame this as Scott failing to take affirmative and helpful steps. That sounds like how you might describe the decision of someone on a beach not to wade out into the waves to rescue a stranger’s child. That person did not create the situation, does not benefit from it, and therefore has no moral obligation to solve it (you might reason). But here, Scott both contributes to the problem and benefits from it by casting Bale as Moses (among other bizarre 1950s-era casting decisions). It’s as if he’s standing on the beach and deciding not to swim out even though he talked the kid into going swimming and gets to keep the gold watch left on his towel if the kid drowns. In other words, if you concede that racism in Hollywood casting is a problem and an injury to people of color, why should Scott not have an obligation to do something about it? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2014, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/205 "2014-12-17T21:21:24Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > So, that’s leaves us with the entertainment found in movies and whether those who make them have an obligation not to just explicitly not discriminate (no way am I hiring any black people for my movie) but also to affirmative be inclusive. Except he explicitly discriminated: he hired a megastar from a studio system that overwhelming discriminates in favor of white people, and in the process continued the discrimination in favor of white people. Nobody is asking for him to be inclusive. If he’d cast a movie set in Egypt entirely with actors who are ethnically Northern African, nobody would have batted an eye; if he’d cast a movie set in Scotland entirely using actors who are ethnically Scottish, nobody would have said anything. It’s his conscious decision to cast an ethnically inappropriate actor–consciously to exclude “Mohammad so-and-so” from consideration–that he’s getting dinged for. > [@](#): > > I could not, in good conscience, call Scott a bad person for what he has done. You can’t; I can. He decided, in making probably the biggest movie in the world about Africa this year, to use a cast of white people, because he suspected that would make him richer. He did so despite knowing that this sort of decisionmaking is what makes it hard for nonwhite actors to get parts. It was a conscious decision. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2014, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/206 "2014-12-17T21:23:31Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Was Elizabeth Taylor, Michael Jackson’s bestie, racist for portraying Cleopatra? I don’t know if I should be laughing or crying. Stephen Colbert better watch out. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2014, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/207 "2014-12-17T21:26:31Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > **Danconia** , you’re being totally stupid. Your argument has been: > > 1. They had to use white actors, because the movie was mysteriously made in all-white Spain, and they couldn’t control that! > 2. They couldn’t possibly pay for airfare to bring nonwhite actors to nonwhite Spain! > 3. Oh, they could have controlled the movie’s location, AND they could have hired some of the hundreds of thousands of Moroccans to act the part of Egyptians? Well, THERE WAS NEVER A PROBLEM! Why on earth would any producer fly extras from country A to country B, pay for passports and work permits, pay a per diem, on top of the actual wages? Just to make a political point? Who cares what race “Palm frond-waver #3” is, anyway? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2014, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/208 "2014-12-17T21:28:46Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I just chafe at the idea that all art, and every aspect of art, has to be considered political. But why though? Art is a form of expression. When people make art, they are making statements. An artistic statement might be as bland as “flowers are beautiful”. And it might be 100 times more provocative than that. But regardless of where they fall on the scale, these statements are meant to impress and influence other people. This makes art political. If Scott had made _Exodus_ with a predominately Asian cast, most people would wonder what statement he was trying to make above and beyond the story of Moses. If he’d cast a bunch of black folks (in Africa, no less), same thing. Change the cast to predominately white, and suddenly this choice is immune from analysis and critique? Even when Scott himself says he cast Bale for cynical reasons? Nah, that’s intellectually lazy. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2014, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/209 "2014-12-17T21:31:26Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Why on earth would any producer fly extras from country A to country B, pay for passports and work permits, pay a per diem, on top of the actual wages? Just to make a political point? Perhaps to render the scene well? Same reason they’d spend money to build sets, design costumes, so forth? Though the principal point here seems to be the casting of the leads, not the extras. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2014, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/210 "2014-12-17T21:32:52Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Why on earth would any producer fly extras from country A to country B, pay for passports and work permits, pay a per diem, on top of the actual wages? Just to make a political point? 1. There are many, many countries where it could have been filmed with plenty of Northern African extras available. 2. Including Spain. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2014, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/211 "2014-12-17T21:33:19Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > If he’d cast a bunch of black folks (in Africa, no less), same thing. Except for the minor detail that Egyptians are not black. But don’t let facts get in the way, monstro. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2014, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/212 "2014-12-17T21:34:55Z")
True or false: if Scott tried to cast an unknown, the studio would not finance his picture. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2014, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/213 "2014-12-17T21:36:00Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Do you think “The Birth of a Nation” was political? > > If the filmmaker had told us it was intended to be nothing more than entertainment, what would you think? He did claim it wasn’t political, and the response to it lead to him making Intolerance right afterwards. Whether you believe those claims is up to you, really. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2014, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/214 "2014-12-17T21:39:16Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > True or false: if Scott tried to cast an unknown, the studio would not finance his picture. What does that have to do with anything? Is anyone saying that Scott should have cast an unknown? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2014, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/215 "2014-12-17T21:39:52Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > Perhaps to render the scene well? Same reason they’d spend money to build sets, design costumes, so forth? > > Though the principal point here seems to be the casting of the leads, not the extras. Was Elizabeth Taylor racist for portraying Cleopatra? Likewise, was Sandy Duncan misandrist for portraying Peter Pan? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2014, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/216 "2014-12-17T21:52:24Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > could not, in good conscience, call Scott a bad person for what he has done. See, for me it’s not about good or bad. All of us are infected by racism, so we’re all “bad”. But we aren’t consciously choosing to be racist. I don’t think Ridley eats black babies for breakfast. When I was a kid, I was obsessed with drawing. I’d walk around with my sketch book and draw like crazy. I was pretty good at it too. One day my mother asked why all of the people I drew were white and male. Why would a litte black girl choose subjects that look absolutely nothing like her? Did I not like black people or girls or something? I gave her what sounded like a good explanation. I told her that white boys were easier to draw than black girls. She wasn’t satisfied by that answer, but she dropped it. (Which is saying something, if knew my mother). My mother could see what I could not see. I’d been infected with racism. And because this racism dwelled in my unconscious mind, I had to come up with a “just so” story to explain it to myself. I could not tell her that white males were my “default” human being, since all the books and stories and movies I consumed were pretty much all about white males. I didn’t know this, so how coould I?. But it’s funny. After she pointed out my bias, I became more cognizant of my subjects and diversified my style. Because I didn’t want to be racist, especially against myself. I wasn’t a bad person before my revelation. And I don’t think I would have been teh evil if I had chosen to ignore my mother’s criticism. But I do think that every individual has a responsibility to challenge bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2014, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/217 "2014-12-17T22:05:28Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Was Elizabeth Taylor racist for portraying Cleopatra? She was a link in a generally racist system. But we’ve mainly been looking at the responsibility of those with the most decision-making power, producers and directors. > [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Likewise, was Sandy Duncan misandrist for portraying Peter Pan? That’s not “likewise” at all. To my knowledge there has never been an institutional bias against male actors. And I believe there was a work-specific reason for casting a woman there. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2014, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/218 "2014-12-17T22:14:34Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Was Elizabeth Taylor, Michael Jackson’s bestie, racist for portraying Cleopatra? Good question, since Elizabeth Taylor didn’t have any Macedonian Greek ancestors. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2014, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/219 "2014-12-17T22:15:05Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > She was a link in a generally racist system. But we’ve mainly been looking at the responsibility of those with the most decision-making power, producers and directors. A link to a generally racist system. Yeah, right. What about her being barred from Egypt because she converted to Judaism? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2014, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/220 "2014-12-17T23:21:34Z")
Today on Frontline: “ **D’Anconia** : Idiot Asshole, or Asshole Idiot?” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083.md?page=12)