# We need to call out inherent racism in explicit terms **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 13, 2014, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083 "2014-12-13T01:40:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/61 "2014-12-13T13:42:45Z")
> [@What this place reminds me of](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-this-place-reminds-me-of/664160/4): > > It’s a sick place, and its sickness makes me sad. It makes me wonder how much malice is hiding beneath the surface of the people I deal with every day, and just how deep it goes. Certainly none of you bring this kind of energy to your interactions IRL. Why not process the malice in some more productive way? So many of you seem to glory in it. How is that helping you in the long run? What is it accomplishing? Watching the evolution of Dope posters is fun. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/62 "2014-12-13T13:53:09Z")
> [@get\_lives](#): > > You’re not good with the reading comprehension, are you? Just trying to clarify a point. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/63 "2014-12-13T14:28:34Z")
> [@get\_lives](#): > > You’re not good with the reading comprehension, are you? He’s good at reading comprehension. It’s just that you’re extremely good at being an idiot. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/64 "2014-12-13T14:35:23Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > This could have been a good thread. I’m disappointed it’s been taken over by a loudmouth way in over his or her head. Boy howdy. Could we all join hands and swear a solemn oath to ignore the biggest moron in the thread? So: yes. There is a lot of inherent/implicit racism, and it’s appalling. There are two schools of thought that I find interesting, and I don’t really know where I lie between them: -The Obama school of thought, that suggests that centuries of racism have deformed certain aspects of black culture, such as leading some black children to tear down academically successful black children and accuse them of acting white. Obama has spoken to groups of black graduates and told them they need to fight against this tendency and that black people need to work to change culture. -The Ta-Nehisi Coates school of thought, that suggests that black culture is 0% the problem, that the problem is 100% racism in white culture; if racist cultural structures are demolished, the problem will be solved. If you’re very familiar with either school of thought, you’re probably cringing at my summaries of them. I apologize and welcome correction on these summaries. [Here’s an interesting piece by Coates](http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/03/the-secret-lives-of-inner-city-black-males/284454/) that addresses some of these issues. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/65 "2014-12-13T14:38:00Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Boy howdy. Could we all join hands and swear a solemn oath to ignore the biggest moron in the thread? > > So: yes. There is a lot of inherent/implicit racism, and it’s appalling. There are two schools of thought that I find interesting, and I don’t really know where I lie between them: > > -The Obama school of thought, that suggests that centuries of racism have deformed certain aspects of black culture, such as leading some black children to tear down academically successful black children and accuse them of acting white. Obama has spoken to groups of black graduates and told them they need to fight against this tendency and that black people need to work to change culture. > -The Ta-Nehisi Coates school of thought, that suggests that black culture is 0% the problem, that the problem is 100% racism in white culture; if racist cultural structures are demolished, the problem will be solved. > > If you’re very familiar with either school of thought, you’re probably cringing at my summaries of them. I apologize and welcome correction on these summaries. [Here’s an interesting piece by Coates](http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/03/the-secret-lives-of-inner-city-black-males/284454/) that addresses some of these issues. I’m going to take a wild guess and assume most people are going to fall somewhere in the middle of both. I know I lean more to Coates than I do Obama, though. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/66 "2014-12-13T14:52:14Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Boy howdy. Could we all join hands and swear a solemn oath to ignore the biggest moron in the thread? > > So: yes. There is a lot of inherent/implicit racism, and it’s appalling. There are two schools of thought that I find interesting, and I don’t really know where I lie between them: > > -The Obama school of thought, that suggests that centuries of racism have deformed certain aspects of black culture, such as leading some black children to tear down academically successful black children and accuse them of acting white. Obama has spoken to groups of black graduates and told them they need to fight against this tendency and that black people need to work to change culture. > -The Ta-Nehisi Coates school of thought, that suggests that black culture is 0% the problem, that the problem is 100% racism in white culture; if racist cultural structures are demolished, the problem will be solved. > > If you’re very familiar with either school of thought, you’re probably cringing at my summaries of them. I apologize and welcome correction on these summaries. [Here’s an interesting piece by Coates](http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/03/the-secret-lives-of-inner-city-black-males/284454/) that addresses some of these issues. I’m not sure if this is accurate for the TNC school of thought – I don’t think he so much blames “white culture” for racism (though this is a significant part of the problem) as much as “white society and power structures”, which (I think) he argues were put into place (or much of it was put into place) with explicitly white-supremacist goals. I think he argues that white-supremacism was a significant driving force for America for pretty much all of American history, even past Civil Rights, and that many of these structures are still functioning in such a fashion, even if many or most of the people carrying out these policies are unaware of the long-past motives behind them. I think, anyway. I like TNC a lot – not that I necessarily agree with him on everything. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/67 "2014-12-13T14:52:41Z")
There’s a wonderful exchange back and forth between Coates and [Jonathan Chait](http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/03/barack-obama-vs-the-culture-of-poverty.html) dealing with this issue. Folks may want to read both sides. An important caveat to my summary: what I called the Obama position **does not deny pervasive and ongoing racism**. That makes it different from the widespread conservative viewpoint that in modern times, the problem is the aftereffects of past racism manifested in current black culture, that we don’t really need to devote significant effort today to wiping out the (in their view) negligible current structures that favor white supremacy. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/68 "2014-12-13T15:06:38Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Watching the evolution of Dope posters is fun. 🙂 I wholeheartedly agree, excepting the terms “evolution” and “fun.” ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/69 "2014-12-13T15:26:36Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I’m Canadian. Who am I supposed to be bigoted against? Is there a chart? Just don’t reach for you Mexican or someone will think its a gun and put a cap in your ass. ---
**Author:** ![jimbuff314](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c57346/32.png) [@jimbuff314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimbuff314)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/70 "2014-12-13T15:36:58Z")
What? “Don’t reach for you[,] Mexican?” “Don’t reach for you[r] Mexican?” What? And isn’t it “pop a cap?” I don’t want people putting caps up my ass. ---
**Author:** ![Lemmytheseal2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/82dd89/32.png) [@Lemmytheseal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemmytheseal2)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/71 "2014-12-13T16:01:25Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Wow, I don’t have Facebook, a bubble or a feed. If that logic is true, I must be one fucked up racist. But then, I’m not scared of black people either. **In fact, the few black friends I have, I sort of forgot they were black**. But thanks for pointing that out for me. I’ll get Facebook and a bubble and a feed so no one thinks I’m a racist ever again. I doubt that they forget. White people claiming to be color-blind often coexists with an assumption that the playing field is level; in other words, they think if everyone ignored “race”, starting today, then racial inequities would disappear. It’s well-intentioned, but very wrong. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/72 "2014-12-13T16:25:04Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > There’s a wonderful exchange back and forth between Coates and [Jonathan Chait](http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/03/barack-obama-vs-the-culture-of-poverty.html) dealing with this issue. Folks may want to read both sides. > > An important caveat to my summary: what I called the Obama position **does not deny pervasive and ongoing racism**. That makes it different from the widespread conservative viewpoint that in modern times, the problem is the aftereffects of past racism manifested in current black culture, that we don’t really need to devote significant effort today to wiping out the (in their view) negligible current structures that favor white supremacy. I just wanted to say that that was a very good articles and I appreciate you posting it. I hope others will click on the links (and the multiple links in the article that also go into additional thought provoking articles as well). [QUOTE=monstro] I’m going to take a wild guess and assume most people are going to fall somewhere in the middle of both. I know I lean more to Coates than I do Obama, though. [/QUOTE] Unsurprisingly, I’m sure, I fall somewhere in the middle. It IS kind of surprising to me, as I figured I’d be much more on Obama’s side, but Coates makes some interesting, disturbing and thought provoking arguments that seem equally valid. ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Why\_Bother](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e19adc/32.png) [@Doctor\_Why\_Bother](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Why_Bother)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/73 "2014-12-13T17:19:48Z")
> [@get\_lives](#): > > I just looked at your thread history. You work in IT and post about subjects near and dear to the white old nerd heart. I can’t believe you actually think anybody here thinks you’re not white. > > And your accusation of racism reminds me of a certain bible verse about motes and beams, or some such. LOL You’re stupid, you’re in over your head, and you’re single-handedly ruining an otherwise interesting thread. Why don’t you piss off? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/74 "2014-12-13T18:19:15Z")
> [@XT](#): > > News flash, chief…I don’t HAVE a Facebook feed, and I haven’t opened my Facebook account in freaking years. I think that means you’re basically Hitler. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/75 "2014-12-13T18:21:34Z")
Shit. I don’t have Facebook. Never have. Does that mean I’ve broken the Hitler barrier? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/76 "2014-12-13T18:37:40Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Boy howdy. Could we all join hands and swear a solemn oath to ignore the biggest moron in the thread? What?!? But I didn’t even… Ohhhh. Sorry, you weren’t talking about me. My bad. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/77 "2014-12-13T23:01:38Z")
> [@get\_lives](#): > > The painkillers study showed that even black healthcare providers believed that black people suffer less pain. So yes, everyone is bigoted in one way or another, pretty much. What of it? There are degrees of bigotry. Big shock. Will you acknowledge, then, that you are a bigot as well? And that calling anyone a bigot is therefore as useful as calling anyone a human? Your own argument is that everyone is bigoted. And then you start throwing the word “bigot” at everybody who disagrees with you as though this is a meaningful rebuttal. By the way, the term you need to familiarize yourself with is “white privilege.” It is a much more effective method of telling all white people they are racist. Most of us will still tell you to fuck off but the bleeding-hearts around here will hoist you on their shoulders as a new initiate to their blame-think mentality. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/78 "2014-12-13T23:11:59Z")
> [@get\_lives](#): > > LOL If you have skimmed your facebook feed today for more than 5-10 minutes and NOT seen this article, your bubble is racist. Recognize your inherent prejudices, and recognize the fact that your bubble ENCOURAGES them, is what I would say to those of you who would not ever have seen this without coming here. > > And I am still thinking of all the people who will NEVER learn about this article, or others about related studies. I don’t have a presence on Facebook. How racist is that? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/79 "2014-12-13T23:18:09Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > By the way, the term you need to familiarize yourself with is “white privilege.” It is a much more effective method of telling all white people they are racist. This isn’t true at all. “White privilege” does not mean that white = racist. It means that white people do not experience racism the way that black people or Native Americans do. So in a discussion about race relations, a white people’s perspective is going to be very influenced by that limited experience. And because of that, likely off-base. If I tell a white person that it sucks being a racial minority sometimes and that person tells me they don’t see racism or discrimination, so thus I must be some hypersensitive race-card playing negro, they aren’t showing their racism (necessarily). They are showing their privilege. To use myself as an example, I once commented on a thread where people were complaining about how much it sucks to be fat and neglected by the media. I said something like, “Ya’ll fat people need to learn how to love yourselves. You can’t expect the world to do that for you!” I wasn’t saying this out of hatred of fatness or fat people (though I suspect I have some subconscious anti-fat bias). I was saying this out of a lack of empathy, as someone who is in the privileged position of never having been overweight. I don’t know how it feels to have a body shape that is vilified by society. Since I don’t know, I should have thought twice about sharing that tone-deaf opinion. Not every opinion is worth sharing. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/80 "2014-12-13T23:41:31Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > Cite for health care workers giving black people lower doses of painkillers because they unconsciously believe black people feel less pain? I’ve never heard that before. Yeah, that’s pretty silly. I think health care workers give black people lower doses of pain killers because they think black people are exaggerating the pain in order to get drugs. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083.md?page=5)