# We need to call out inherent racism in explicit terms **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 13, 2014, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083 "2014-12-13T01:40:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/101 "2014-12-14T14:42:36Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > That’s interesting. Why do you think the kids showed this type of perception? Do you think it is because the 7 year olds were racists or expressing racist beliefs? I can’t imagine that anyone would be perplexed by the idea of a 7-year-old with racist tendencies. Are you asking this question sincerely, or is this a lame attempt at a “gotcha”? Because I ensure you that a 7-year-old can be racist. Especially if their parents are too. What alternative explanation can you provide to account for a 7-year-old who believes a black person doesn’t feel pain the same way a white person does? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/102 "2014-12-14T14:49:26Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I just read this [critique](http://mashable.com/2014/12/11/exodus-movie-racist/) of Ridley Scott’s _Exodus: Gods and King_. Perhaps one solution to combating racism is for people to stop supporting movies where all the dark-skinned people are relegated to scenery. With Hollywood having the diverse acting talent that it has right now, such a film is simply unacceptable in 2014. If we stop supporting these films and excusing lazy filmmaking, maybe this bullshit will stop. Ben Kingsley isn’t Indian?:dubious: ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/103 "2014-12-14T14:52:53Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Ben Kingsley isn’t Indian?:dubious: :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/104 "2014-12-14T14:59:48Z")
A few years back it was all over the news where a black woman died in an emergency room waiting for help. She was lying on the floor screaming and writhing in pain before she died. This was racism at its finest. She was ignored because healthcare workers assumed it was the cry wolf thing going on. A very bad situation! ``` What is the answer here, move the loudest screamer to the front of the line? This is generaly what is done now even though the loudest screamer is very often far from being the sickest. They have a rough job and as should be they are held accountable for thier decisions. ``` ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/105 "2014-12-14T15:16:51Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > What is the answer here, move the loudest screamer to the front of the line? Is this the only solution that exists to you? Here’s an idea: Anyone who checks in at the front desk complaining of sharp acute pains in their chest or abdomen should be seen ASAP. If this isn’t possible, triage based on the other symptoms and high risk factors they show up with. If you still can’t figure out how to deliver services to the most in need, then something is very wrong with your system. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/106 "2014-12-14T15:21:54Z")
Also, the solution to the emergency room inequities may not lie in the emergency room. It’s possible that unfair housing practices, unequal drug prosecutions, and other systemic racist influences carry over into perceptions of black people in emergency rooms: workers there may tend to perceive black people as more criminal and less able to obtain regular medical care. Many of the particular examples of racism in our society can’t be solved at their locus; we need broad systematic changes. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/107 "2014-12-14T15:41:17Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > :dubious: Not sure exactly who is saying what here but the [Wikipedia page](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Kingsley) for Ben Kingsly indicates he was born with an Indian name, in England, with a father who was born in Kenya, of Indian descent. So yes and no depending on what you mean… I don’t know what he says about himself. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/108 "2014-12-14T15:47:45Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Not sure exactly who is saying what here but the [Wikipedia page](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Kingsley) for Ben Kingsly indicates he was born with an Indian name, in England, with a father who was born in Kenya, of Indian descent. > > So yes and no depending on what you mean… I don’t know what he says about himself. In interviews, Ben Kingsley says “My father was a Gujarat,” in exactly those words. However, the second paragraph of the linked article says this: > [@](#): > > The uproar against this film has been dragging on for months on end, initially because of the film’s cast list. The movie stars carrying this film — Christian Bale, Joel Edgerton (if he can be called a “star” yet), Sigourney Weaver and Aaron Paul — are all white, as are most of the male supporting cast with speaking roles (save for Ben Kingsley, who is half-Indian) > > In contrast, aside from Weaver, most of the main actresses with speaking roles — Hiam Abbass, Maria Valverde, Golshifteh Farahani and Indira Varma, mainly — are non-white, which might be the film’s only saving grace in terms of racial casting. But let’s go back to Scott’s Variety quote. So no one has denied that Kingsley is half-Indian. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/109 "2014-12-14T16:01:15Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Not sure exactly who is saying what here but the [Wikipedia page](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Kingsley) for Ben Kingsly indicates he was born with an Indian name, in England, with a father who was born in Kenya, of Indian descent. > > So yes and no depending on what you mean… I don’t know what he says about himself. Imagine if someone were to put on a movie about the American Revolution starring an overwhelming black cast, with white people only serving as scenery. There would no doubt be complaints about how this not only misrepresents history, but that it conveys the message that white people are only useful as props. Now imagine that someone’s response to this criticism is: “But Halle Berry’s in it! She’s half-white!” That’s how I feel about pointing out Ben Kingsley. It’s a stupid response to a very reasonable argument. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/110 "2014-12-14T16:14:46Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Imagine if someone were to put on a movie about the American Revolution starring an overwhelming black cast, with white people only serving as scenery. There would no doubt be complaints about how this not only misrepresents history, but that it conveys the message that white people are only useful as props. > > Now imagine that someone’s response to this criticism is: “But Halle Berry’s in it! She’s half-white!” > > That’s how I feel about pointing out Ben Kingsley. It’s a stupid response to a very reasonable argument. Yeah, I was being a smart ass (surprise!). Never knew there was any argument in Sir Ben’s corner. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/111 "2014-12-14T16:20:29Z")
You know who would made a terrific Moses? [Oded Fehr.](http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0004912/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1) Not some schmuck named “Christian”. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/112 "2014-12-14T16:27:37Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Yeah, I was being a smart ass (surprise!). Never knew there was any argument in Sir Ben’s corner. I didn’t think you were that stupid, but Dopers never fail to surprise. This is not the first time I’ve been whooshed, though. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/113 "2014-12-14T17:11:41Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I didn’t think you were that stupid, but Dopers never fail to surprise. > > This is not the first time I’ve been whooshed, though. Well, to make up for my Stoopid post, allow me to mention [David Chen](http://www.slashfilm.com/author/david-chen/) as a resource for racial problems in movie casting. It is his pet-peeve. He is a Chinese-American film reviewer at SlashFilm. A few of his recent topics: [Ridley Scott and the Exodus controversy.](http://www.slashfilm.com/ridley-scott-exodus-casting-controversy/) [Racism in Transformers.](http://www.slashfilm.com/no-one-wants-to-own-up-to-racism-in-transformers/) [Fantastic Four racial backlash.](http://www.slashfilm.com/controversy-black-human-torch/) There is a ton more at the /film (SlashFilm) site. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/114 "2014-12-14T17:20:43Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Also, the solution to the emergency room inequities may not lie in the emergency room. [Black children receive less pain medication than their white counterparts for the same procedures…and are also subjected to longer wait times in the ER](http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Wellness/black-children-pain-meds-er/story?id=16231146) It could be that black adults present as “difficult patients” BECAUSE they’ve spent their entire lives not being properly cared for by medical professionals. If I’m ignored every time I complain about pain in calm, dispassionate terms, I might very well scream my fool head off, just to see if that gets any attention. If a person is dealing with chronic, persistent, under-treated pain, they will likely not do a good job tending to all the others of their life. They will likely not be good employees or students. They will likely not be attentive parents. They will likely not be very ambitious. They will likely perpetuate all the negative stereotypes assigned to their racial/ethnic identity–that they are lazy, stupid, and self-defeating. Which then only serves as a justification in the minds of others why their lives aren’t valuable…why no one should care about them. If change has got to start somewhere, I say why SHOULDN’T it start in the ER or the doctor’s office. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/115 "2014-12-14T17:22:49Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Imagine if someone were to put on a movie about the American Revolution starring an overwhelming black cast, with white people only serving as scenery. There would no doubt be complaints about how this not only misrepresents history, but that it conveys the message that white people are only useful as props. > > Now imagine that someone’s response to this criticism is: “But Halle Berry’s in it! She’s half-white!” > > That’s how I feel about pointing out Ben Kingsley. It’s a stupid response to a very reasonable argument. Got it, I was just trying to make sure everyone’s on the same page as far as the facts were concerned. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/116 "2014-12-14T17:35:48Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > [Black children receive less pain medication than their white counterparts for the same procedures…and are also subjected to longer wait times in the ER](http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Wellness/black-children-pain-meds-er/story?id=16231146) > > It could be that black adults present as “difficult patients” BECAUSE they’ve spent their entire lives not being properly cared for by medical professionals. If I’m ignored every time I complain about pain in calm, dispassionate terms, I might very well scream my fool head off, just to see if that gets any attention. > > If a person is dealing with chronic, persistent, under-treated pain, they will likely not do a good job tending to all the others of their life. They will likely not be good employees or students. They will likely not be attentive parents. They will likely not be very ambitious. They will likely perpetuate all the negative stereotypes assigned to their racial/ethnic identity–that they are lazy, stupid, and self-defeating. Which then only serves as a justification in the minds of others why their lives aren’t valuable…why no one should care about them. > > If change has got to start somewhere, I say why SHOULDN’T it start in the ER or the doctor’s office. This issue is commonly discussed in drug and alcohol rehab. One thing abusers have in common is a general lack of tolerance for most anything they don’t like. Naturally this general lack of tolerance tends to affect all areas of thier lives excasperating the problem and creating even more less than desirable situations. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/117 "2014-12-14T17:39:44Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > If change has got to start somewhere, I say why SHOULDN’T it start in the ER or the doctor’s office. I’m not saying attitudes there shouldn’t change. What I’m suggesting is that it may be more difficult to make the change there than in some other places, places where you don’t have a whole lot of subjective moment-to-moment decisionmaking. For example, if I’m correct that the unequal detention of black men contributes to pervasive negative societal attitudes toward black people, maybe that’s a good place for the change to start, since decisions about detention are made at a more deliberate speed and according to detailed protocols; it may be an easier place to change the decisions that are made. Does that make sense? It’s not that ER policies are fine; it’s that changing them may prove really difficult if everything else stays the same. Edit: also, I’m not really attached to this argument, and may well be wrong about teh relative priorities of emergency room pain medication prescription and other issues such as housing discrimination or penal system racism; I may even be wrong to try to prioritize them in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/118 "2014-12-14T17:58:45Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I’m not saying attitudes there shouldn’t change. What I’m suggesting is that it may be more difficult to make the change there than in some other places, places where you don’t have a whole lot of subjective moment-to-moment decisionmaking. I know. I was just using what you said as a reason to get on a soap box. Not that ever need an excuse. 🙂 I think all institutions have their biases. Most people focus on the legal system, and for good reason. But there are inequities across the board. I think they are all important since they all perpetuate one another other. To wit, how many black males in the criminal justice system were misdiagnosed and/or maltreated by the medical establishment when they were children? It’s all well and good for the Right to talk about “personal responsibility”, but this is only a reasonable recommendation when the entire system isn’t rigged. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/119 "2014-12-14T18:23:16Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I know. I was just using what you said as a reason to get on a soap box. Not that ever need an excuse. 🙂 > > I think all institutions have their biases. Most people focus on the legal system, and for good reason. But there are inequities across the board. I think they are all important since they all perpetuate one another other. To wit, how many black males in the criminal justice system were misdiagnosed and/or maltreated by the medical establishment when they were children? It’s all well and good for the Right to talk about “personal responsibility”, but this is only a reasonable recommendation when the entire system isn’t rigged. I agree–it’s a tricky problem to unravel. Schools are infamous for giving more office referrals to black boys than to other groups, and I’m very uncomfortably aware of that. At the same time, if I have kids living in a high-crime housing project, those kids are likely to respond to perceived slights with more aggression than will kids living in safer neighborhoods; aggressive hyper-response is a rational response when there’s little protection from aggressors. Those kids are gonna get in more trouble at school if we don’t tolerate this sort of overreaction to perceived slights. And those kids, at least in my area, are overwhelmingly African American, and you can trace the reasons for this back to some crazy racist decisions made by city planners in the 1970s. I know about the problem of too many office referrals for black boys. What do I do when it’s primarily black boys engaging in physical violence, the one behavior I’m really likely to write a referral for? Granted I spend a lot of time talking about different home and school behaviors in advance, trying to head off that sort of behavior transfer. Do I accept a higher level of physical aggression in the classroom than I otherwise would? Do I accept a different level from kids in poverty than I accept from middle-class kids? Do I become part of the problem by writing a disproportionate number of referrals for black kids? Is there another solution I can enact? It’s an ugly problem, and I really don’t know a good answer to it. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/120 "2014-12-14T19:02:06Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Schools are infamous for giving more office referrals to black boys than to other groups, and I’m very uncomfortably aware of that. > > … > > I know about the problem of too many office referrals for black boys. What do I do when it’s primarily black boys engaging in physical violence, the one behavior I’m really likely to write a referral for? Well, we could tackle this issue at a different point. The same kinds of studies that show that black children are more likely to be subject to administrative discipline also show that administrators are likely to get the cops involved with respect to infractions by black students. We could start at that point—stop the schools from calling the cops so quickly on black kids for the same kinds of infractions that white kids engage in without getting the legal system involved. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083.md?page=7)