# We need to call out inherent racism in explicit terms **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 13, 2014, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083 "2014-12-13T01:40:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/141 "2014-12-15T09:10:02Z")
The stereotypes extend to depictions of Christian heroes like Jesus or King David. They’re depicted as fair-skinned and with “gracile Mediterranean” features. Weren’t the ancient Israelites probably dark-skinned with “robust” features? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/142 "2014-12-15T09:30:14Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > {…} Nightcrawler - Hispanic? Maybe? He’s blue. What do you want from me? {…} > [@](#): > > {…} Nightcrawler is originally stated to be from a small village called Witzeldorf in the German state of Bavaria. {…}[RIGHT][CITE](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nightcrawler_%28comics%29)[/RIGHT] So, for some, the definition of Whiteness. CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 9:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/143 "2014-12-15T09:31:51Z")
Yeah, exactly. Like, I remember talking to a fundie about the shroud of turin, and one of his sources referenced a fresca dated before the carbon-dated age that depicted jesus and “perfectly” matched the shroud. Slight problem: the fresca depicted Jesus as an ango-saxon white man. Yeah, 'scuse me, but that’s bollocks. @ **CMC** : well shit, there ya go. What do we have then for hispanic heroes? _Tarantula_? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/144 "2014-12-15T09:52:30Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > @ **CMC** : well shit, there ya go. What do we have then for hispanic heroes? _Tarantula_? Zorro. As played by Sir Anthony Hopkins. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/145 "2014-12-15T09:56:19Z")
Ouch. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/146 "2014-12-15T11:01:55Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > @ **CMC** : well shit, there ya go. What do we have then for hispanic heroes? _Tarantula_? The current White Tiger is a [Hispanic woman](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Tiger_%28Ava_Ayala%29), I think. She’s not what I’d call a major character, though. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/147 "2014-12-15T11:11:32Z")
Or someone I’ve ever heard of. Ooh, here’s one - Cassandra Cain, AKA the best Batgirl. She was Asian. Shame she wasn’t around very long and got retconned out of existence with the new 52. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/148 "2014-12-15T11:38:50Z")
You all mention movie heroes. Well what about villains? Could we also accept a black Joker, Loki, Agent Smith, Magneto, or Lex Luthor? Can you imagine some invading space aliens and they were all black skinned how well would that would go over? African Americans already hate the “black equals evil” image. And look at the Bond movies, only one of them, Live and Let Die, had a black villian. All the rest just have Eastern European accents. Could we handle a return to “Blaxploitation” movies of the 70’s like Blacula, Blackbelt Jones, and Black Dynamite? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/149 "2014-12-15T11:44:35Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > JAlso, it would have been a great opportunity to offer black actors, who have enough trouble getting into the genre because of the racial imbalances of the source material, roles in huge fantasy blockbusters. Whoops. This is why I find the casting so infuriating. High-profile non-white acting roles are already slim pickings. The number of Academy awards handed out to non-white actors every year is already super tiny. If a dark-skinned actor can’t get a good role in a movie set in Africa, involving African people, then where the hell are they supposed to find one? On a Tyler Perry set? > [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Boycotting one movie is going to stop racism? > > Are you serious? > > BTW, speaking of movies I found it interesting how they figured out how to get some black people into the last “Hobbit” movie. I find it interesting that you think all this time I’ve been talking about one movie. I guess all my other posts in this thread have been invisible to you. To state the obvious: The movie is emblematic of white privilege. It doesn’t bother you that an African story about African people have been completely white-washed, since you can point out a couple of black Hobbits and a black guy in _Thor_ (let’s ignore for the moment that Egyptians are a real people). That it doesn’t bother you doesn’t make you more virtuous than me. It doesn’t make you more “above the fray” or enlightened. Mind you, it doesn’t make you racist either. But it does mean that as long as movies like this go unchallenged, you can’t possibly expect the angry minorities to stop being angry. It’s not about a single movie, but that single movie isn’t helping. I hope this makes it clearer for you. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/150 "2014-12-15T11:44:52Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > You all mention movie heroes. > > Well what about villains? Could we also accept a black Joker, Loki, Agent Smith, Magneto, or Lex Luthor? Can you imagine some invading space aliens and they were all black skinned how well would that would go over? Surely– **surely** –you’re not decrying the lack of villainous roles for black actors. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/151 "2014-12-15T11:50:10Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > African Americans already hate the “black equals evil” image. No, African Americans hate when the only roles featuring us are villainous. If all the villains are black, then black equals evil. But this doesn’t happen when you find black people in all kinds of roles. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/152 "2014-12-15T11:51:00Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > You all mention movie heroes. > > Well what about villains? Could we also accept a black Joker, Loki, Agent Smith, Magneto, or Lex Luthor? Can you imagine some invading space aliens and they were all black skinned how well would that would go over? > > African Americans already hate the “black equals evil” image. > > And look at the Bond movies, only one of them, Live and Let Die, had a black villian. All the rest just have Eastern European accents. > > Could we handle a return to “Blaxploitation” movies of the 70’s like Blacula, Blackbelt Jones, and Black Dynamite? …Which is funny, because “villain” is usually the go-to role for African-Americans. For what it’s worth, the same is true - the race of Joker, Loki, etc. is completely immaterial to their character. But then you run into another issue - the “minority as enemy” problem. Which is a real issue in cinema - African-Americans being typecast overwhelmingly as the bad guys, often as brainless thugs. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/153 "2014-12-15T16:56:40Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I can’t imagine that anyone would be perplexed by the idea of a 7-year-old with racist tendencies. Are you asking this question sincerely, or is this a lame attempt at a “gotcha”? Because I ensure you that a 7-year-old can be racist. Especially if their parents are too. > > What alternative explanation can you provide to account for a 7-year-old who believes a black person doesn’t feel pain the same way a white person does? It’s not a gotcha. I am sure there are 7 year old racists who probably were taught or influenced to think that way from the people around them. My question is if you think that’s the case for the participants of this study, like if there was some bias in selecting the respondents. In other words, do you think the results of this study would hold up if the respondents were from different multi-cultural environments? I only read the linked article which didn’t go into a lot of detail. This is pure conjecture but my first thought was that kids tend to associate pain with a lot of visual stimulus. The contrast of blood or bruising against skin is greater in lighter toned skin. It would be interesting to see the same study done with kids from all different races, and compare the results. In any event, the study using young kids is interesting - 7 year olds may not fit the narrative as much but my guess is that by using young kids the study is trying to isolate something inherent rather than environmentally influenced. The younger the kids being used the more it would isolate out the opportunity for environmental influences. I find this type of information much more informative and useful for discussion than talk of prominent roles in entertainment. My issue with the way this discussion came about is how it was framed. Look at the quote from doorhinge that was in the OP: > [@Why wasn't the police officer who killed Eric Garner indicted?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-wasnt-the-police-officer-who-killed-eric-garner-indicted/706271/611): > > - Are other countries police forces facing the same criminal mindset that U.S. police are facing? \*\*Acsenray \*\*translates this to accusing \*\*doorhinge \*\*of being a racist then pivots to saying that people need to call out racism as a way to agitate. While I agree with the principle that everyone should participate in calling out racism, the genesis of this incident is particularly weak given the source material. **XT’s** original point which I agree with was that calling everything racist dilutes attention in instances where there is genuine racism. Using studies of perception of others’ pain is a great example of racial disparity which I didn’t know about before. Accusing doorhinge of being a racist because he recognizes that crime is different in different countries and regions is weak shit unless there is some other evidence. Future accusations of racism from \*\*Acsenray \*\*will therefore be weakened because IMO, his ability to assess incidents of racism is poor. You recongized this with **get lives** in post #60. It is not productive to accuse every action as being racist. It’s only a matter of degree between **get lives** and \*\*Acsenray \*\*in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/154 "2014-12-15T17:07:31Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > T > > To state the obvious: The movie is emblematic of white privilege. It doesn’t bother you that an African story about African people have been completely white-washed, since you can point out a couple of black Hobbits and a black guy in _Thor_ (let’s ignore for the moment that Egyptians are a real people). That it doesn’t bother you doesn’t make you more virtuous than me. It doesn’t make you more “above the fray” or enlightened. Mind you, it doesn’t make you racist either. But it does mean that as long as movies like this go unchallenged, you can’t possibly expect the angry minorities to stop being angry. It’s not about a single movie, but that single movie isn’t helping. > > I hope this makes it clearer for you. So what should the movie makers do? Follow some sort of formula where say 25% of all roles have to black? So maybe 4 of the dwarves in “The Hobbit” should have been black? Look, I go to a movie to be entertained. I’m not out to save the world so no, I’m not going to boycot a movie because of the race of the characters. It’s a movie and nothing more. Plus, why cant you at least applaud the progress thats been made? No more tv and movies of the 50’s with nary a black face in them. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/155 "2014-12-15T17:11:56Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > So what should the movie makers do? Follow some sort of formula where say 25% of all roles have to black? So maybe 4 of the dwarves in “The Hobbit” should have been black? Per movie? Absolutely not. But a studio ought to be paying attention to whether, across all their productions, there’s a racial bias going on, and if so, figure out why. It’s totally fine to have a movie in which all characters are white. But if your movie is set in Africa, it’s kind of bizarre to have that happen. And Scott’s justification was especially weak. > [@](#): > > Look, I go to a movie to be entertained. I’m not out to save the world so no, I’m not going to boycot a movie because of the race of the characters. Sure, that’s your prerogative. And lucky you, you’re white, so the overwhelming majority of well-developed or interesting characters you see in movies will be white like you. Why should you care if others don’t get to see characters who look like them? > [@](#): > > Plus, why cant you at least applaud the progress thats been made? No more tv and movies of the 50’s with nary a black face in them. This is silly: nobody has said that progress hasn’t been made. But if someone removes all but the toe of their boot from your throat, you might wait to clap. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/156 "2014-12-15T17:23:29Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Plus, why cant you at least applaud the progress thats been made? No more tv and movies of the 50’s with nary a black face in them. Yeah! Y’all got your freedom, what’s all this nonsense about 40 acres and a mule, too? Be happy with what you got! ---
**Author:** ![grayhairedmomma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/47e85d/32.png) [@grayhairedmomma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grayhairedmomma)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/157 "2014-12-15T18:03:49Z")
Jesus Christ. This thread is fucking infuriating. I know there are a ton of people on this board who have been bullied. Well, imagine that it never ends. That you get no protection from the school administration. Indeed, sometimes it’s your teachers picking on you too. That your more popular classmates just stand around and do nothing to help. Imagine people telling you “well, stop being so weird”. That you just need to man-up and deal with it. Imagine feeling that constant level of being alert and on guard every goddamn day, every where you go. You know when someone is harassing you in a way that can be explained away by others, but you and he know exactly what’s happening. In our society, black people are treated like the kid nobody likes in middle school. We’re constantly harassed and get minimal protection from the justice system. Most people just stand around and watch, and we’re blamed for being “different”. Then we’re told to just deal with it, to not make waves. Just put your head down and try to be invisible. Told our experiences aren’t real. You’re right **Ascenray**. The time for being polite and sensitive to the feelings of the “popular kids” has long passed. If I’m willing to call out homophobia and misogyny, I can call out hidden racism too. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/158 "2014-12-15T21:03:11Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > So what should the movie makers do? Follow some sort of formula where say 25% of all roles have to black? So maybe 4 of the dwarves in “The Hobbit” should have been black? Maybe make a movie set in Africa, about Africans, that features people with melanin in their skins doing something besides playing trees in the background? Is this really too much to ask? > [@](#): > > Look, I go to a movie to be entertained. I’m not out to save the world so no, I’m not going to boycot a movie because of the race of the characters. You asked for some solutions to racism and I gave you one. If you don’t want to challenge your assumptions, you don’t want to question anything, you don’t want to change your behavior, and you don’t want to make difficult choices, then you are simply not interested in combating racism. So why even bother acting like you are? > [@](#): > > It’s a movie and nothing more. Entertainment has a powerful impact on our mindsets and attitudes. The most effective propaganda is stuff that entertains more than it educates (see “The Birth of a Nation”). > [@](#): > > Plus, why cant you at least applaud the progress thats been made? No more tv and movies of the 50’s with nary a black face in them. And yet there are still a lot of shows with nary a black face in them. But guess what? You will not hear me complaining about them for the most part, because frankly I don’t care about fictional sitcoms. But I do care about history being distorted in ways that further entrench the myth of white superiority. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2014, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/159 "2014-12-16T05:36:21Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Maybe make a movie set in Africa, about Africans, that features people with melanin in their skins doing something besides playing trees in the background? Is this really too much to ask? Movies get made beacuse they think their will be an audience who will pay money to see it. Sometimes that goes along with some historical issue which is partly why they make the movie “21” last year about Jackie Robinson. And the previous year had “Red Tails - The story of the Tuskagee Airmen”. So those kind of movies do get made. > [@monstro](#): > > You asked for some solutions to racism and I gave you one. If you don’t want to challenge your assumptions, you don’t want to question anything, you don’t want to change your behavior, and you don’t want to make difficult choices, then you are simply not interested in combating racism. So why even bother acting like you are? Well to me worrying about characters in a movie is a pretty weak way to deal with the issue. Quite frankly what I would like to see is all the lilly white liberals who say they hate racism so much, I’d like to see them quite literally put their butts where their moth is and move into an all-black neighborhood and put their kids in all black schools. > [@monstro](#): > > Entertainment has a powerful impact on our mindsets and attitudes. The most effective propaganda is stuff that entertains more than it educates (see “The Birth of a Nation”). I agree. That is why I liked George Romero’s “Night of the Living Dead” because he made the hero a black man which was pretty radical when that movie came out. > [@monstro](#): > > And yet there are still a lot of shows with nary a black face in them. But guess what? You will not hear me complaining about them for the most part, because frankly I don’t care about fictional sitcoms. But I do care about history being distorted in ways that further entrench the myth of white superiority. Actually I think there are more black face than ever before on tv. They are just on so many different screens. For example BET is all black. Fox and TBS have 2 shows apiece with all black casts so those shows are there. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2014, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083/160 "2014-12-16T20:17:07Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Movies get made beacuse they think their will be an audience who will pay money to see it. Sometimes that goes along with some historical issue which is partly why they make the movie “21” last year about Jackie Robinson. And the previous year had “Red Tails - The story of the Tuskagee Airmen”. So those kind of movies do get made. They do–but [let’s look at the data.](http://www.bunchecenter.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/2014-Hollywood-Diversity-Report-2-12-14.pdf) [quote=] Minorities claimed only 10.5% of the lead roles in the 172 films examined in 2011. Because minorities collectively accounted for 36.3% of the US population in 2010, they were underrepresented by a factor of more than 3 to 1 among lead roles in the films examined. … Over half of the films featured casts that were 10 percent minority or less, while another 22.1 percent of the films had casts that were only from 11 to 20 percent minority. The cast diversity interval containing the 36.3 percent minority share of the nation’s population - i.e., 31 percent to 40 percent - accounted for just 2.3 percent of the films. … Minority actors claimed just 5.1 percent of the lead roles in broadcast comedies and dramas during the 2011-12 season. This share corresponds to underrepresentation by a factor of about 7 to 1 for minority actors. [/quote] This is the context in which criticism is made. When so many movies are made that are disproportionately white (again, almost 90% of movies fall into this category), any effort made to diversify casts, such as Elba being a Norse god, can be applauded, while efforts made to eliminate roles for minority actors, such as casting white actors in the roles of Egyptians, might be condemned. Context matters. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-call-out-inherent-racism-in-explicit-terms/707083.md?page=9)