# We need to fight them over there to help train them to fight us over here **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 29, 2007, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-fight-them-over-there-to-help-train-them-to-fight-us-over-here/405920 "2007-05-29T14:52:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2007, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-fight-them-over-there-to-help-train-them-to-fight-us-over-here/405920/41 "2007-05-29T16:29:08Z")
[QUOTE=Trotsky] The worst thing we can do is cut and run. It’ll make running from Vietnam look like a great thing. It’s really scary that people don’t want to finish this war off with a victory. [/QUOTE] Yeah, Vietnam is now a major threat to the world. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Trotsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@Trotsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trotsky)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2007, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-fight-them-over-there-to-help-train-them-to-fight-us-over-here/405920/42 "2007-05-29T16:29:30Z")
[QUOTE=Pochacco] How exactly, are the Islamicists going to take over the world? Sure they can harass us and kill us in drib and drabs, but the Islamic world does not possess the political cohesion or industrial base to compete on the world stage as anything more than a nuisance. Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia were both major powers able to project serious military strength well beyond their borders. To equate them with the threat posed by a handful of religious nut-jobs is beyond silly. [/QUOTE] Those harmless nuts.. They managed to attack the USA even more than WW2 era Japan. But boy they’re just harmless little puppies! ---
**Author:** ![Trotsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@Trotsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trotsky)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2007, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-fight-them-over-there-to-help-train-them-to-fight-us-over-here/405920/43 "2007-05-29T16:30:31Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] Yeah, Vietnam is now a major threat to the world. :rolleyes: [/QUOTE] Way to misread! I’m saying that their people would’ve been better off if we stayed and defended them like we did South Korea. But thanks for trying! ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2007, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-fight-them-over-there-to-help-train-them-to-fight-us-over-here/405920/44 "2007-05-29T16:30:32Z")
[QUOTE=Trotsky] It would’ve been worth it to save South Vietnam and turn it into another South Korea.. And kept it free. [/QUOTE] You know, I remember a time when conservatives blasted Bill Clinton for “nation building”. Funny how the worm turns. ---
**Author:** ![Trotsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@Trotsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trotsky)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2007, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-fight-them-over-there-to-help-train-them-to-fight-us-over-here/405920/45 "2007-05-29T16:32:52Z")
[QUOTE=Fear Itself] You know, I remember a time when conservatives blasted Bill Clinton for “nation building”. Funny how the worm turns. [/QUOTE] That’s odd. South Vietnam was already a nation. We were defending it by their request. Iraq is a more pure ‘nation building’ situation. I’d say in the post cold war era, rogue nations are a bit more dangerous than before and it just might be necessary. The problem with clinton’s version? He wanted to build the wrong side up. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2007, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-fight-them-over-there-to-help-train-them-to-fight-us-over-here/405920/46 "2007-05-29T16:33:11Z")
[QUOTE=Trotsky] It’s more bizarre to say they didn’t hate us at maximum already. Cause they did. When you’re already hated as much as possible, you can’t make it ‘worse’. [/QUOTE] This is arrant nonsense. The _terrorists_ may have hated “us” at maximum already… but the average Muslim in the street didn’t. US and UK policy has encouraged tens of thousands formerly apathetic people into taking a violent position against us. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2007, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-fight-them-over-there-to-help-train-them-to-fight-us-over-here/405920/47 "2007-05-29T16:33:22Z")
[QUOTE=Trotsky] But no, thanks to your mindset, we cut and run and they died and fell to a dead-end system. Same as your type wants to do with jihadist islam in Iraq now. History repeating itself. [/QUOTE] You do know, don’t you, that Saddam Hussein himself was an ENEMY of jihadist Islam? And by booting him him out of power we destroyed the main regional counterweight to the religious nuts in Iran? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2007, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-fight-them-over-there-to-help-train-them-to-fight-us-over-here/405920/48 "2007-05-29T16:35:05Z")
[QUOTE=Trotsky] It’s only if we leave a vacuum in those areas that they can succeed. And that’s just what the democrats are ‘saying’, but deep down won’t do. It is certainly what the extremist left wants to see happen though, to ‘show it’ to Bush. [/QUOTE] If you recall, Saddam, while killing good people, also killed Islamists, like Sadr’s father. The vacuum is of his creation. To punish him for killing a thousand, we’ve set up a situation where 10,00 have been killed. (Scale appropriately.) And for what? For non-existent WMDs, a non-existent nuke program, and the promise of a democracy which even you say is a pipe dream. You and your buddy Bush are the biggest friends Osama ever had. Remember who it was who pulled resources away from the real terrorists to invade Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2007, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-fight-them-over-there-to-help-train-them-to-fight-us-over-here/405920/49 "2007-05-29T16:40:01Z")
[QUOTE=Trotsky] Those harmless nuts.. They managed to attack the USA even more than WW2 era Japan. But boy they’re just harmless little puppies! [/QUOTE] You really don’t know your history very well. Consider the 12,000 American soldiers taken prisoner when the Japanese conquered the Phillipines – an American commonwealth. Is there any Islamic country in the world powerful enough to invade and conquer an American territory and take that many prisoners? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2007, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-fight-them-over-there-to-help-train-them-to-fight-us-over-here/405920/50 "2007-05-29T16:43:08Z")
[QUOTE=Trotsky] Way to misread! I’m saying that their people would’ve been better off if we stayed and defended them like we did South Korea. But thanks for trying! [/QUOTE] You mean the ones still alive. Not to mention the dead American troops who would have deluxe accomodations at Arlington. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2007, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-fight-them-over-there-to-help-train-them-to-fight-us-over-here/405920/51 "2007-05-29T16:47:02Z")
[QUOTE=Trotsky] Those harmless nuts.. They managed to attack the USA even more than WW2 era Japan. But boy they’re just harmless little puppies! [/QUOTE] Which of the 9/11 attackers came from Iraq again? Notice that the justified war, in Afghanistan, still has support. Most people only object to Bush not giving enough resources to it, and to his turning a blind eye to the al Qaeda safe haven in Pakistan. If we hadn’t invaded Iraq, how many active Islamists do you think would be there? ---
**Author:** ![Trotsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@Trotsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trotsky)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2007, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-fight-them-over-there-to-help-train-them-to-fight-us-over-here/405920/52 "2007-05-29T16:47:56Z")
[QUOTE=Pochacco] You really don’t know your history very well. Consider the 12,000 American soldiers taken prisoner when the Japanese conquered the Phillipines – an American commonwealth. Is there any Islamic country in the world powerful enough to invade and conquer an American territory and take that many prisoners? [/QUOTE] POW’s isn’t the same. Jeezus. ---
**Author:** ![Trotsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@Trotsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trotsky)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2007, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-fight-them-over-there-to-help-train-them-to-fight-us-over-here/405920/53 "2007-05-29T16:49:01Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] Which of the 9/11 attackers came from Iraq again? Notice that the justified war, in Afghanistan, still has support. Most people only object to Bush not giving enough resources to it, and to his turning a blind eye to the al Qaeda safe haven in Pakistan. If we hadn’t invaded Iraq, how many active Islamists do you think would be there? [/QUOTE] I wouldn’t mind opening up the war against Pakistan as well. And certainly Iran. Iraq was the ‘easy’ one to go after. I’m glad we did for preventative measures. However, there’s a lot more that we need to get to. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2007, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-fight-them-over-there-to-help-train-them-to-fight-us-over-here/405920/54 "2007-05-29T16:51:52Z")
[QUOTE=Trotsky] I wouldn’t mind opening up the war against Pakistan as well. And certainly Iran. Iraq was the ‘easy’ one to go after. I’m glad we did for preventative measures. However, there’s a lot more that we need to get to. [/QUOTE] With what army? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2007, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-fight-them-over-there-to-help-train-them-to-fight-us-over-here/405920/55 "2007-05-29T17:00:32Z")
[QUOTE=Trotsky] POW’s isn’t the same. Jeezus. [/QUOTE] Japan was powerful enough to invade and CONQUER an American territory, killing 2500 American soldiers and taking 12,000 American prisoners. Nazi Germany was powerful enough to bomb huge chunks of England into rubble, killing 43,000 civilians. They were serious threats to Americans and American interests. Al Qaeda is a flea by comparison. I’ll ask you again: How exactly are the Islamicists going to conquer the world? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2007, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-fight-them-over-there-to-help-train-them-to-fight-us-over-here/405920/56 "2007-05-29T17:17:47Z")
[QUOTE=Trotsky] I wouldn’t mind opening up the war against Pakistan as well. And certainly Iran. Iraq was the ‘easy’ one to go after. I’m glad we did for preventative measures. However, there’s a lot more that we need to get to. [/QUOTE] Still waiting for you to tell me about the Islamists who were swarming Iraq before we invaded. Saddam’s Iraq had equal rights for women, and Christians in high government positions. Iraq was indeed a dictatorship, but it was an equal opportunity dictatorship. Not to mention that the war with Iran was pretty helpful. You think Iran is in better or worse position to influence the Muslim world from our invasion? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2007, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-fight-them-over-there-to-help-train-them-to-fight-us-over-here/405920/57 "2007-05-29T17:27:12Z")
[QUOTE=Trotsky] That’s odd. South Vietnam was already a nation. We were defending it by their request. [/QUOTE] Ok, now you confirmed that you are an ignorant of history. [http://www.jfklibrary.org/Historical+Resources/JFK+in+History/Vietnam.htm](http://www.jfklibrary.org/Historical+Resources/JFK+in+History/Vietnam.htm) > [@](#): > > The United States supported a military government in the South and the decision of its leader, Ngo Dinh Diem, to prevent free elections which might result in the unification of the country under the control of the Communists. We disregarded the will of the Vietnamese by pretending a failed government in the south represented the will of all Vietnamese. More than 1 million Vietnamese and 58000 American soldiers dead were the result. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2007, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-fight-them-over-there-to-help-train-them-to-fight-us-over-here/405920/58 "2007-05-29T18:06:58Z")
[QUOTE=Trotsky] Iraq was the ‘easy’ one to go after. [/quote] That is why the whole thing reminded me of the 4th crusade. Europe was supposed to invade Israel, but to pay for the war the crusaders invaded Constantinople! ‘easy’ because they were weak then. Never mind that they were not Muslim then, they were Orthodox Christians. (“Just as bad!” many crusaders tought) The result though was that once they pillaged Constantinople they still realized it was a waste to continue to Jerusalem and so the crusades ended by showing future generations the bastards those crusaders were. > [@](#): > > I’m glad we did for preventative measures. However, there’s a lot more that we need to get to. Saddam was an enemy of Bin Laden and Iran. Back to another past war: The allies decided in WWII it was best for the future of humanity to support soviet Russia in the struggle against Hitler, I shudder to think what may have happened if the Bush administration crowd was in charge then. I have seen reports that Bush has a bust of Churchill in his desk. I wonder if Bush ever notices that Churchill frowns on him. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2007, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-fight-them-over-there-to-help-train-them-to-fight-us-over-here/405920/59 "2007-05-29T19:15:48Z")
[QUOTE=Apos] Even more perverse, in many cases, the direct trainers of some of these new breeds of terrorists are… well… us. As in Iraqi security forces who we trained to fight who then go on to fight us. [/QUOTE] As a matter of fact, the Iraqi army and police forces we are training are riddled with insurgents – some of whose allegiances are not even secret. See [here.](http://www.thenation.com/doc/20070604/ackerman) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2007, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-fight-them-over-there-to-help-train-them-to-fight-us-over-here/405920/60 "2007-05-29T19:19:24Z")
[QUOTE=Trotsky] I wouldn’t mind opening up the war against Pakistan as well. [/QUOTE] Why? Musharraff is our ally. In fact, [the way things are going there,](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=415074) it’s conceivable that we might end up sending troops there to **defend** his government; and not all of its enemies are jihadists. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-fight-them-over-there-to-help-train-them-to-fight-us-over-here/405920.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-need-to-fight-them-over-there-to-help-train-them-to-fight-us-over-here/405920.md?page=4)