# We really need a new progressive movement in America **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 11, 2012, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-really-need-a-new-progressive-movement-in-america/618444 "2012-04-11T07:35:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-really-need-a-new-progressive-movement-in-america/618444/102 "2012-04-12T20:43:28Z")
> [@Eric\_the\_Green](#): > > There does not NEED to be middlemen beetwen buyers and sellers. So will you be driving to Apple headquarters in Cupertino, CA to purchase your iPad or flying to the Foxconn factory in Longhua, Shenzhen to pick it up from the manufacturer? ---
**Author:** ![Eric\_the\_Green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Eric\_the\_Green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eric_the_Green)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-really-need-a-new-progressive-movement-in-america/618444/103 "2012-04-12T20:45:24Z")
> [@Reply](#): > > It’s whining because you’re essentially parroting the 70s. The world is long past the stage of identifying issues. We’re in dire need of solutions. So what are your solutions? > [@](#): > > Yes, but the balance has swayed far enough in one direction that now is the time for action, not more dreaming. I disagree. We live in times in which dreaming is scorned; you and folks here are examples. > [@](#): > > This is the crux of it. I think you’re making the perfect the enemy of the good, dreaming of some sort of utopian pan-national, multi-front progressive cause the likes of which the world has never seen, yet you’re proposing no way by which to bring it about. My proposals are quite moderate, and the movements for them already exist. But too many people aren’t supporting them because of cynicism and lack of confidence in them, due to such claims as “this is a center-right country” and “Obama has over-reached” and other such nonsense. So, support the goals; “_action_” consists of voting out the folks who refuse to implement them, and debunking the false ideologies that deceive people into thinking the solutions can’t be implemented. > [@](#): > > Is there a charismatic leader? An imminent coup? An opportunistic war? A disruptive technology? A Borg brainwashing? What is going to suddenly enable this drastic, massive shift in popular belief and governmental policy that hasn’t been tried in the last 30-40 years of people working on most of those same issues? What would YOu suggest? Demonstrate your willingness and ability to “take action” that you claim I’m not doing. How do we bring these goals to fruition? > [@](#): > > In combining a vast swath of arguably relevant but ultimately discrete and individually difficult topics, you’ve defined the problem out of the realm of ambition and well into the realm of fanciful daydreaming. They are not discreet at all; that’s an important point. > [@](#): > > Fine if you can back it up with some sort of strategy, but you haven’t. Strategy: convince and persuade people to get out and vote out the people who are blocking the agenda, and then pressure the people you vote in to implement it. > [@](#): > > See above. The goals are obvious. They were obvious thirty years ago. The solutions are not, and the line of thinking posited by this thread – that we just need to band together and dream together – bring us no closer to realization of solutions. That’s all that’s needed, since the solutions are (mostly) already clear. It is the _solutions_ that have been obvious for 30 years. > [@](#): > > No, I don’t know how to get people on board, but I’m looking into it every day. If I ever find out, I’ll be sure to report back… Good, I’ll be waiting, and if I get more ideas too I’ll report back too. 🙂 > [@](#): > > Anyway, I’m going to leave this thread for a bit, but I owe you an apology first… > But, hell, at least you want the same things I do, and you probably didn’t deserve the vitriol. So, good luck. Sorry I lashed out. Thanks, I accept. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Eric\_the\_Green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Eric\_the\_Green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eric_the_Green)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-really-need-a-new-progressive-movement-in-america/618444/104 "2012-04-12T20:47:56Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > So will you be driving to Apple headquarters in Cupertino, CA to purchase your iPad or flying to the Foxconn factory in Longhua, Shenzhen to pick it up from the manufacturer? I’m talking about commodity speculators, silly; not retailers. and by the way, my point was that the free market policies are causing these high prices. If we can’t eliminate the speculators, we sure as hell can and ought to regulate them when they force us all to pay prices that are way out of line. And we ought to regulate the car and energy companies too so they have to switch to electric and other alternatives, instead of giving a free ride to subsidized oil companies and car companies that refuse to switch. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-really-need-a-new-progressive-movement-in-america/618444/105 "2012-04-12T20:50:26Z")
ETA: Ok, you are talking about commodity speculators. You are still wrong though. -XT ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-really-need-a-new-progressive-movement-in-america/618444/106 "2012-04-12T20:58:58Z")
> [@Eric\_the\_Green](#): > > I’m talking about commodity speculators, silly; not retailers. So will driving to the Refinery in Valdez, Alaska to fill your tank before you go buy that iPod? ---
**Author:** ![Eric\_the\_Green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Eric\_the\_Green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eric_the_Green)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-really-need-a-new-progressive-movement-in-america/618444/107 "2012-04-12T21:11:52Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > So will driving to the Refinery in Valdez, Alaska to fill your tank before you go buy that iPod? The oil company already has oil tankers and pipelines to bring it to the refinery, from which they can truck it to gas stations, who can pay for it and set the price. No commodity speculator needed. I can drive to Cupertino; it’s close by 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-really-need-a-new-progressive-movement-in-america/618444/108 "2012-04-12T21:13:31Z")
[QUOTE=Eric the Green] I’m talking about commodity speculators, silly; not retailers. [/QUOTE] What do you think commodity speculators do, exactly? > [@](#): > > and by the way, my point was that the free market policies are causing these high prices. Why do you think this? What prices do you think are ‘high’ because of the ‘free market’? I assume you mean that the price is being distorted BY the ‘free market’ and driving them up artificially. > [@](#): > > If we can’t eliminate the speculators, we sure as hell can and ought to regulate them when they force us all to pay prices that are way out of line. Um…why would you WANT to eliminate speculators? Again, what do you suppose their role is? Do you understand what commodity traders do? How would you regulate them exactly and what effect do you suppose this would have? Again, what do you think they do, and how would regulation change this or make it ‘better’? What regulation, specifically, do you think is needed or lacking in the current system, and what effect would it have on, say, prices for various commodities or goods? I assume you are talking about oil and the price at the pump for refined fuels such as gasoline, and you are asserting something along the lines that ‘speculators’ are the reason why gas costs you so much at the pump, but if not put it in whatever context you want. Assuming you want to discuss this at all…it might be a hijack, in which case apologies. > [@](#): > > And we ought to regulate the car and energy companies too so they have to switch to electric and other alternatives, instead of giving a free ride to subsidized oil companies and car companies that refuse to switch. How would you regulate the car companies to force them to switch to electrical or other alternatives? And what do you suppose the costs of that would be? -XT ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-really-need-a-new-progressive-movement-in-america/618444/109 "2012-04-12T21:13:53Z")
Here’s the problem with your entire line of thinking. While much of what you suggest is fine in theory because it sounds all nice and touchey feeling and all. The reality is that much of it is simplistic, contradictory or based on an incomplete or inadequate understanding of the underlying principles. If it were so easy to resolve all those problems, we’d just do it. ---
**Author:** ![Eric\_the\_Green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Eric\_the\_Green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eric_the_Green)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-really-need-a-new-progressive-movement-in-america/618444/110 "2012-04-12T21:20:06Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Here’s the problem with your entire line of thinking. While much of what you suggest is fine in theory because it sounds all nice and touchey feeling and all. The reality is that much of it is simplistic, contradictory or based on an incomplete or inadequate understanding of the underlying principles. No it’s not. The underlying principles stated have been from the dismal science of economics. There are no principles there at all; only established habits. What I stated in the OP are general statements of goals. By the way, if people think this thread is a waste of time, I have to say most of the others seem a lot more boring to me and don’t get to the real issues. > [@](#): > > If it were so easy to resolve all those problems, we’d just do it. What makes it hard is lack of political will, due to delusion and deception put out by the powers-that-be, who would lose money and status if these solutions were enacted. That is no news or mystery either. The reason solutions are not adopted, is because they threaten someone’s power. ---
**Author:** ![Eric\_the\_Green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Eric\_the\_Green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eric_the_Green)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-really-need-a-new-progressive-movement-in-america/618444/111 "2012-04-12T21:27:40Z")
> [@XT](#): > > What do you think commodity speculators do, exactly? They bid on commodities and set prices. > [@](#): > > I assume you mean that the price is being distorted BY the ‘free market’ and driving them up artificially. Sounds about right. And free market policies are assumptions that the market can’t be interfered with, when what is needed is to interfere with it. > [@](#): > > What regulation, specifically, do you think is needed or lacking in the current system, and what effect would it have on, say, prices for various commodities or goods? I assume you are talking about oil and the price at the pump for refined fuels such as gasoline, and you are asserting something along the lines that ‘speculators’ are the reason why gas costs you so much at the pump, but if not put it in whatever context you want. The speculators can charge anything they want now. There should be some limits on how much they can raise prices at a given time, and they should have to justify the increases, just as public utilities do. That is not a mysterious concept at all; it’s established practice in many industries that offer basic things we need. > [@](#): > > How would you regulate the car companies to force them to switch to electrical or other alternatives? And what do you suppose the costs of that would be? > > -XT That’s already been discussed ad nauseum by press, pundits, activists, etc. It’s already happening. Obama already made a start, and CA Gov. Brown has gone further. Make fuel efficiency standards so high that only electric cars (or at first, hybrids) can meet them. The car companies can pay to make the switch; they develop new products all the time. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-really-need-a-new-progressive-movement-in-america/618444/112 "2012-04-12T21:39:23Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Here’s the problem with your entire line of thinking. While much of what you suggest is fine in theory because it sounds all nice and touchey feeling and all. The reality is that much of it is simplistic, contradictory or based on an incomplete or inadequate understanding of the underlying principles. > > If it were so easy to resolve all those problems, we’d just do it. If there were a tidy profit to be made, we already would have. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-really-need-a-new-progressive-movement-in-america/618444/113 "2012-04-12T21:42:54Z")
[QUOTE=Eric the Green] They bid on commodities and set prices. [/QUOTE] No…they don’t set prices. > [@](#): > > Sounds about right. And free market policies are assumptions that the market can’t be interfered with, when what is needed is to interfere with it. Sez who? Your idea of a ‘free market’ doesn’t exist in this reality. There IS no ‘free market’ that exists or has ever existed without interference of one kind or another. Certainly not today. > [@](#): > > The speculators can charge anything they want now. No, they can’t. You have many fundamental misunderstandings of basic concepts or roles that you should really fill in with knowledge before attempting to assert such things. Speculators don’t set prices, and they can’t charge anything they want for any good or service, and even a moments thought should make it obvious to you why this is a ridiculous statement. Consider…why don’t speculators simply set the price of oil per barrel at one billioncagillionsccillionshoobydofentillon…yen? Answer…because if they did no one would buy it at that price and the entire commodity market in oil would collapse. > [@](#): > > There should be some limits on how much they can raise prices at a given time, and they should have top justify the increases, just as public utilities do. There are limits, of course. And if you actually looked at the underlying reasons for why the price at the pump is what it is and all the vectors and factors for why and how that price is arrived at (in just this one limited commodity) then you would better understand why your assertions are so silly…and it would also give you better insight into the point of this thread and how REAL change could be effected, and what changes would actually make sense…and what changes would be harmful, counterproductive, or have the opposite effect to the one you are attempting to push through. Seriously…if you want to be taken seriously, then at least learn the basics of this stuff or folks will just dismiss you AND your politics out of hand. > [@](#): > > That is not a mysterious concept at all; it’s established practice in many industries that offer basic things we need. Such as? Can you give some examples? > [@](#): > > That’s already been discussed ad nauseum by press, pundits, activists, etc. It’s already happening. Obama already made a start, and CA Gov. Brown has gone further. Make fuel efficiency standards so high that only electric cars (or at first, hybrids) can meet them. The car companies can pay to make the switch; they develop new products all the time. Let me put it a different way. Why has Japan not switched over to all electric (or other non-oil based alternative) vehicles? They have even less oil resources, it’s more difficult for them to import oil (being an island and all), they have poured literally hundreds of billions into alternative fuels, actually have population densities that favor such things (i.e. they are concentrated into small areas, by and large). IOW, they have a vested interest in doing exactly what you are advocating. Why haven’t they? Why hasn’t Europe? Or China…why haven’t they mandated by fiat electric or alternative vehicles, since they have only recently begun growing in personal transport? Why haven’t they instituted your seemingly obvious solutions and leaped ahead of the US? -XT ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-really-need-a-new-progressive-movement-in-america/618444/114 "2012-04-12T22:29:34Z")
> [@Eric\_the\_Green](#): > > The solutions are very obvious and well-known to all these issues. Limit all campaign spending to $100. Require broadcasters to offer free time to candidates. Public financing of all campaigns. > > Major candidates would get a set amount, and people could contribute a set amount that allows each citizen to contribute instead of a few people with the most money. Who decides who’s a “major candidate” and is thus allowed to get money, if nobody is allowed to fundraise on their own in the first place? Who decides who gets broadcasting time? What you’re proposing here, essentially, is a system where the government decides who’s allowed to run for office. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-really-need-a-new-progressive-movement-in-america/618444/115 "2012-04-12T23:41:16Z")
> [@XT](#): > > While I generally disagree with anything Evil Captor says, and mainly disagree with his post here as well, from an ideological perspective he’s probably right…if you think the current progressive movement and Progressive Party are flawed or wrong, your best bet is to either found or join a group you DO believe in and who’s ideology more closely suits your own world view…and, perhaps, is more action oriented. From a practical perspective it’s pretty foolish to dilute the rather fringe progressive movement further by doing something like this (taking away your support for them is not a trivial blow to their numbers :p), and if you want real change the best thing to do is work through the current Democratic party and the system as it works in reality, as opposed to how you think it should work. But maybe the best way to effect real change is to join or found a better progressive movement or Party, one that attempts a more grass roots oriented and focused campaign to get progressive ideas and ideals out to the masses, yearning to vote in a brave new world. > > There is nothing wrong with political activism and pushing for change you believe in. > > -XT Well as indicated in that cite in my post, MOST AMERICANS AGREE WITH MANY PROGRESSIVE IDEAS. The numbers of progressives should not be trivial, they should be MASSIVE. The weak performance of the present progressive movements, and of the Democratic Party progressives, indicates that a new approach is needed. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-really-need-a-new-progressive-movement-in-america/618444/116 "2012-04-12T23:45:27Z")
Then you were right to advocate such a course for the OP. If the current movement isn’t making his or her bunny jump, then action is clearly needed to revitalize or create a new progressive movement. I AGREE with you on this point. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-really-need-a-new-progressive-movement-in-america/618444/117 "2012-04-12T23:46:48Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The kind folks over at FoxNews will be more than happy to assist you in this worthy endeavor. Well sure they would … at first! But I remind you of a famous quote from that political epic “Conan the Barbarian”: “At first, we thought they were just another snake cult.” ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-really-need-a-new-progressive-movement-in-america/618444/118 "2012-04-12T23:56:25Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Then you were right to advocate such a course for the OP. If the current movement isn’t making his or her bunny jump, then action is clearly needed to revitalize or create a new progressive movement. I AGREE with you on this point. > > -XT That’s not the element of your post I was disagreeing with. Your post seemed to think that splitting up the ‘trivial’ progressive movement might be a bad idea politically. That was the part I was disagreeing with … it should not be a trivial movement. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2012, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-really-need-a-new-progressive-movement-in-america/618444/119 "2012-04-13T00:01:14Z")
Well, I was mainly going with tongue in cheek there…i.e. I was going for laughs, even if I’m the only one who is laughing. 😛 But here’s the thing…whether it ‘should’ be more than a fringe group or not, it clearly IS, right now. Which was the point of the joke…even the loss of a few members to form a new Progressive Party would be non-trivial in the current climate. However, that shouldn’t deter anyone…if a political party or movement isn’t doing it for someone then they can and should look elsewhere, or even start a new one themselves if they feel that strongly about it and really don’t think that the one they are in is accomplishing whatever goals they think are important. Clearly the current Progressive Party and movement isn’t doing it for the OP, so he or she should take steps accordingly. IMHO, that would be to start at the grass roots and build popular support, if a lot of Americans really feel compatible with progressive ideals. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2012, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-really-need-a-new-progressive-movement-in-america/618444/120 "2012-04-13T00:23:05Z")
> [@Eric\_the\_Green](#): > > The good is that taxes are not raised to pay these ridiculous subsidies. Petroleum companies are making fuel hand over fist; that is obvious, so obvious it doesn’t even need to be said, and yet you forget. What do we need to give them any breaks for? I didn’t ask if there was a good side - I asked if you had considered the potential negative outcomes that will ensue. If you cut subsidies, they won’t stop making obscene profits, they’ll just hike their margins to compensate - the cost of everything that depends on energy (which is _everything_) will rise - so you’ll be paying the petroleum companies that way instead. > [@](#): > > What would benefit us all is if they all went _out of business_! Why the endless excuses for the status quo? We need to change and move forward! Fossil fuels are ruining our climate and our resources. It’s like you’ve never heard of cause and effect. If the petroleum companies go out of business any other way than very gradually, it would likely be enormously disruptive pretty much everything in our modern lives is dependent upon fossil fuels - of course, that’s not sustainable, but it’s not at all simple to fix either. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2012, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-really-need-a-new-progressive-movement-in-america/618444/121 "2012-04-13T00:24:56Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Which was the point of the joke…even the loss of a few members to form a new Progressive Party would be non-trivial in the current climate. “Loss” is not necessary. A person can belong to some progressive party and be active in it, and still vote Democratic most of the time – or, for that matter, can still be active in the Democratic Party as well, and a member of the County Democratic Executive Committee or something. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-really-need-a-new-progressive-movement-in-america/618444.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-really-need-a-new-progressive-movement-in-america/618444.md?page=7)