# We really need a new "Star Trek" **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 1, 2014, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-really-need-a-new-star-trek/677643 "2014-01-01T16:34:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-really-need-a-new-star-trek/677643/61 "2014-01-02T18:35:05Z")
I sill like _UFO_. ---
**Author:** ![Osiris\_the\_1st](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/9de0a6/32.png) [@Osiris\_the\_1st](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Osiris_the_1st)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-really-need-a-new-star-trek/677643/62 "2014-01-02T19:10:52Z")
> [@Max\_the\_Immortal](#): > > I think that the _Star Trek_ setting is due for a dark turn. If I remember the _Voyager_ finale correctly, time travel shenanigans have delivered a very very high-tech ship into the Federation’s hands. I want to see the Federation reverse engineer the tech from that ship and upgrade their whole fleet. They take out the Borg, then turn their attention to the Romulans and other rivals. Military victories allow some nasty and jingoistic politicians to gain influence, and the Federation goes a bit power-hungry. > > Fast forward a few decades. The Federation is the Evil Empire. It controls a lot more turf, but has lost that bright bubbly optimism it had been known for. The Romulans, Klingons, etc. are more or less caught up technologically thanks to some lucky espionage, and are each waging wars of independence. The main characters are, say, the crew of an unaligned courier ship that in the course of taking odd jobs gets swept up in the independence movements and later with elements within the Federation working to overthrow the government. I think someone might be listening to your suggestions. [startrekrenegades.com/](http://startrekrenegades.com/) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-really-need-a-new-star-trek/677643/63 "2014-01-02T19:55:31Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Hal Clement, Mission of Gravity . > > Niven, Ringworld. > > Robert L. Forward, Dragon’s Egg > > The Murasaki shared universe. > > and so forth. > > I suspect that a discussion of kilt length is coming, however. > [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > And: > > Niven and Pournelle, _The Mote in God’s Eye_ > Joe Haldeman, _All My Sins Remembered_ > Joe Haldeman, _The Forever War_ > George R.R. Martin, _Tuf Voyaging_ > > etc. etc. etc. You can’t have sentient ETs in a series set **within the Solar System,** if you want to keep it hard SF, because at this point we can be fairly certain there are none, within the Solar System. Of course, even Bova sometimes [bends that rule](http://www.amazon.com/Leviathans-Jupiter-Ben-Bova/dp/0765317885). ---
**Author:** ![AtomicDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@AtomicDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AtomicDog)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-really-need-a-new-star-trek/677643/64 "2014-01-02T20:09:11Z")
I am an avid science fiction fan, and the Star Trek future is the only one that I would actually want to live in. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-really-need-a-new-star-trek/677643/65 "2014-01-02T20:11:47Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > But that’s different than utopian SF. Bow ties are cool and Utopias are boring. _Star Trek_ is set in a utopia and not boring. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-really-need-a-new-star-trek/677643/66 "2014-01-02T20:16:16Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > I’d like to see a _Star Trek_ movie in which the big budget is spent on developing an interesting and plausible alien race with whom Kirk & Co. establish first contact. A not-at-all-humanoid [Starfish Alien](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StarfishAliens) would be the most plausible. The challenge would be in making it a character with whom the audience can identify and sympathize. ---
**Author:** ![Frazzled](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frazzled/32/3368_2.png) [@Frazzled](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frazzled)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-really-need-a-new-star-trek/677643/67 "2014-01-02T21:41:46Z")
Science Fiction, more than other genres I think, reflects the general mood of the country when it’s written. The original Star Trek was written during the Cold War and Civil Rights conflicts. The Federation = The US, the Klingon’s = the USSR. Roddenberry tried to create a multi-ethnic crew working together as equals. The Federation was a force for good and order in the Galaxy and would use force if necessary to preserve those values. By the time of The Next Generation the Cold War was clearly waning. This was reflected in the show by portraying Klingons and the Federation as antagonistic, though working towards peace. Instead of the Federation actively spreading it principles to the frontier, they stayed closer to home handling disputes with diplomacy. The Federation was still the superpower, but lead by example. Force was only used as a last resort. Then, 9/11 happened. Battlestar Galactica is the first show post 9/11 and captures the sense of loss we felt when we realized that strong government can’t protect us. Later, it reflected our doubts about the War on Terror and other questionable actions that were in the news during the run of the show. Most of the shows that have appeared in the past decade reflect the same sense of doubt, both in the institutions we have, and the actions we take as a country in other countries. We, and therefore our science fiction, are pessimistic. The only type of optimistic Star Trek style show I could see working in this environment would be one set around the birth of the Federation. The show would need to start with chaos but work towards the Utopia you are seeking. Sort of the reverse premise of Breaking Bad :-). In many ways, it could reflect Roddenberry’s original vision - a crew of discordant ideas that bond to work towards a common goal. Our country is fracturing, so maybe an upbeat show is something people would rally behind again. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-really-need-a-new-star-trek/677643/68 "2014-01-02T23:40:57Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > _Star Trek_ is set in a utopia and not boring. As I stated earlier, repeated viewings of STNG show that quite a few of the episodes are boring (IMHO of course). And the Federation Utopia had quite a few plot holes that they just glossed over. Compelling stories that are set in Utopias are the ones that show the cracks in the Utopia. Or the conflict with outside non-Utopian forces. Stories of people happily going about their Utopian lives are not very interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2014, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-really-need-a-new-star-trek/677643/69 "2014-01-03T00:36:42Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > As I stated earlier, repeated viewings of STNG show that quite a few of the episodes are boring (IMHO of course). And the Federation Utopia had quite a few plot holes that they just glossed over. > > Compelling stories that are set in Utopias are the ones that show the cracks in the Utopia. Or the conflict with outside non-Utopian forces. Stories of people happily going about their Utopian lives are not very interesting. The boringness of ST-TNG comes from everything working too well, their over the top technical superiority, and that they are well past the point of going where no one has gone before - with a few exceptions they are in an already explored region of space. Earth was just as utopian in ST-TOS, but the original Enterprise was always operating right at its limit. And they weren’t so damn smug. Q is basically right. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2014, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-really-need-a-new-star-trek/677643/70 "2014-01-03T00:44:50Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > **Star Trek** came out in 1966. STTNG in 1987. **Star Wars** in 1977. It was a far different world back then. This is 2014, and people want dark. Look at shows like **Hannibal** and **The Following** – everything is filled with mindless evil. Current sf/fantasy includes **The Walking Dead, Grimm** (best when it’s light, but there’s plenty of darkness to go around), **Once Upon a Time** (dark and gloomy fairy tales), and **Once Upon a Time in Wonderland**. The audience does not care for characters who don’t have dark secrets and villains who push the evil to 11. Everyone hates Harry Potter. Roddenberry was reacting to the prevalence of dark stuff at the time, especially in the news. Kennedy had been shot, Vietnam was underway, people were dropping out, no one trusted the government, and things seemed like a mess. During its run there were more assassinations, and the consensus future was that by the year 2000 we’d be in an over-populated polluted wasteland. I can give you tons of examples - for instance nearly every issue of the Jakobsson Galaxy and If. > [@](#): > > Note in this thread: a couple of people have said that you need conflict for good fiction. That’s true, but the comments show that what they mean by “conflict” is “cruel and sadistic bad guys who commit grandiose crimes.” A science fiction show that didn’t have the fate of worlds in the balance – no matter how good – is not going to attract an audience. And ST-TOS had that all the time. You can do that while still having your heroes as people the audience looks up to. They may be flawed, but they are fundamentally decent. ST handled this early by showing a wholly “good” Kirk - who was boring and ineffectual. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2014, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-really-need-a-new-star-trek/677643/71 "2014-01-03T01:13:29Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > You can’t have sentient ETs in a series set **within the Solar System,** if you want to keep it hard SF, because at this point we can be fairly certain there are none, within the Solar System. > > Of course, even Bova sometimes [bends that rule](http://www.amazon.com/Leviathans-Jupiter-Ben-Bova/dp/0765317885). As did Joe Haldeman in _Marsbound_. I recommend it. > [@Voyager](#): > > Everyone hates Harry Potter… So _that_ explains why J.K. Rowling is back on the dole again! No one ever buys her books or watches the movies that inspired them, the poor thing. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2014, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-really-need-a-new-star-trek/677643/72 "2014-01-03T01:51:12Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > How about a series set in a near future and limited to the Solar System, like Ben Bova’s [Grand Tour](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Tour_(novel_series)) series? And that can be as optimistic as you like – just assume there’s controlled nuclear fusion and nanotech and neural-electronic interfaces and space elevators, anything theoretically possible now has been worked out, but no need to go so far as warp drive or transporter beams. E.g., the technological future envisioned by Michio Kaku in [_Physics of the Future._](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physics_of_the_Future) ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2014, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-really-need-a-new-star-trek/677643/73 "2014-01-03T03:00:32Z")
> [@Frazzled](#): > > The only type of optimistic Star Trek style show I could see working in this environment would be one set around the birth of the Federation. The show would need to start with chaos but work towards the Utopia you are seeking. Sort of the reverse premise of Breaking Bad :-). In many ways, it could reflect Roddenberry’s original vision - a crew of discordant ideas that bond to work towards a common goal. Our country is fracturing, so maybe an upbeat show is something people would rally behind again. Sadly, they tried this and, due to a combination of poor management, poor management, and more poor management, along with a side dash of total incompetence, they came up with Star Trek: Enterprise. The best you can say about it that it wasn’t quite as bad as its own reputation. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2014, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-really-need-a-new-star-trek/677643/74 "2014-01-03T03:02:46Z")
I don’t think the Federation of TOS was a utopia as they still had some serious problems. It’s just that it presented a society that seemed to have solved a lot of the big problems that existed in the 1960s. The problem with TNG is that the Federation became a group that was absolutely convinced that their shit didn’t stink. ---
**Author:** ![Bakhesh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Bakhesh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bakhesh)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2014, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-really-need-a-new-star-trek/677643/75 "2014-01-03T14:01:18Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Sadly, they tried this and, due to a combination of poor management, poor management, and more poor management, along with a side dash of total incompetence, they came up with Star Trek: Enterprise. The best you can say about it that it wasn’t quite as bad as its own reputation. The most annoying thing about the crappy new Star Trek is that by rebooting the ST universe, it effectively means that all of trek never happened (All of TOS, TNG, DS9 and Voyager reset), with the exception of Enterprise, which remains firmly in the canon. Way to cherrypick, JJ ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2014, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-really-need-a-new-star-trek/677643/76 "2014-01-03T14:05:46Z")
> [@Bakhesh](#): > > The most annoying thing about the crappy new Star Trek is that by rebooting the ST universe, it effectively means that all of trek never happened (All of TOS, TNG, DS9 and Voyager reset), with the exception of Enterprise, which remains firmly in the canon. > > Way to cherrypick, JJ Nitpick - it did happen, just in a parallel universe. ---
**Author:** ![Bakhesh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Bakhesh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bakhesh)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2014, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-really-need-a-new-star-trek/677643/77 "2014-01-03T14:26:02Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Nitpick - it did happen, just in a parallel universe. nitpick back - you can say that about anything ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2014, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-really-need-a-new-star-trek/677643/78 "2014-01-03T14:40:47Z")
_ **Q!** _ . ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2014, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-really-need-a-new-star-trek/677643/79 "2014-01-03T15:03:09Z")
> [@Bakhesh](#): > > it effectively means that all of trek never happened (All of TOS, TNG, DS9 and Voyager reset) [You might want to tell Paramount and their licensees about that, since they seem not to have gotten the memo.](http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Star_Trek_Online) ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2014, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-really-need-a-new-star-trek/677643/80 "2014-01-03T17:25:04Z")
> [@Bakhesh](#): > > nitpick back - you can say that about anything And already has or will yet, an infinite number of times. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-really-need-a-new-star-trek/677643.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-really-need-a-new-star-trek/677643.md?page=5)