# We should end homelessness in America **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 6, 2018, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-end-homelessness-in-america/810137 "2018-03-06T18:59:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-end-homelessness-in-america/810137/41 "2018-03-07T17:28:00Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > Let me tell you about the shelter: you should take your shoes off each night and put the bed rails into them before you get into bed, so as to keep people from stealing the shoes off your feet while you sleep. You won’t be issued a sheet any more (sorry) but you should sleep in your clothes anyway so no one will steal them. The shelter line forms around 6:30 PM and you don’t want to be way back in the line, in case it fills up for the night. Come there and stand with the others. Other homeless people may approach you, harass you, shake you down for money, molest you (sorry again) (we haven’t allocated the resources to prevent that). Shelter officials will eventually open the door and yell at you all, making threats, and let you in. Learn the rules. Don’t talk back. Get in the food line. Eat. You’ll be directed to your cot. You and a couple hundred other people will be in the same room in a grid array of cots, don’t lose track of which one is yours. People may approach you while you are in your bed. Generally if they are violent or disruptively noisy a security guard will intervene. If you yourself appear to be the violent or noisy one, the security guard may bash your head with the baton or put you in a choke hold (we have at least allocated the resources to hire [del]hooligans and thugs[/del] security guards for your protection but they aren’t really trained…). You have no rights here. You do as you’re told. You can be put out for any infraction including failing to bribe the security guard. The bathrooms have no stall doors. You have no locker to keep personal items in. In the morning you will be fed and kicked out and you cannot leave anything behind. > > It’s a bit different from having a home, if you see what I mean… A bit grimmer than the ones I helped with\*, but pretty much on spot. You also wont be able to take your pets, or smoke or drink or take drugs. - no bribing the guards, it was safer, but the basic prison like conditions are true. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-end-homelessness-in-america/810137/42 "2018-03-07T18:17:49Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > I contend that the only real obstacle to ending homelessness is a lack of political will, not a lack of ability or resources. > > Let’s do some simple arithmetic. [How many](https://endhomelessness.org/homelessness-in-america/homelessness-statistics/state-of-homelessness-report/) homeless are there at any given time? > > Let’s say it takes $10,000 a year to house someone. Multiply the number of homeless people by $10,000, we arrive at a figure of approximately 5.5 billion per year. The overall federal budget is $4.1 trillion. For less than 0.2 percent of our federal budget, we could house every single person who is homeless right now. > > I doubt very many homeless people vote, or donate to political campaigns. Even if they did, they are only a tiny fraction of the population at any given time. That’s why our political system is failing to properly address this issue. If all you had to do to get a free house for life was to become homeless for a night, I bet there would be more homeless people. I don’t know where you can build a house for $10,000, even a mobile home costs twice that before you factor in the land to put in on. ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-end-homelessness-in-america/810137/43 "2018-03-07T18:25:40Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > In Utah at least, it doesn’t appear to be that simple. [Cite - pdf](http://www.aei.org/publication/on-utahs-91-percent-decrease-in-chronic-homelessness/). > > Regards, > Shodan Agreed, the initial news reports in 2015 were a bit over the top and it is not simple - but the AEI is not exactly unbiased. A “Housing First” policy can save money - at least according to direct [reporting](https://www.deseretnews.com/article/865678779/Is-Utah-still-a-model-for-solving-chronic-homelessness.html) from Utah last year. > [@](#): > > Prior to 2009, Corinth says, Utah mistakenly counted clients in transitional housing (semipermanent housing for up to two years) as chronically homeless. This inflated Utah’s chronic homeless numbers. When the mistake was corrected in 2010, the correction created an illusion of sudden and dramatic progress. > > Kohler says she fears that focusing on the disputed claims from 2015 obscures the larger point. “We’ve taken 900 people who fit the strict definition of chronically homeless,” she said, “and put them into permanent housing.” > > And all disputes notwithstanding, Utah’s Housing First strategy does seem to be having an impact on the chronic homeless population. The state’s chronic rate is now among the lowest in the country: In 2016, just 6 percent of Utah’s homeless population were deemed chronic, compared to 22 percent nationwide. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-end-homelessness-in-america/810137/44 "2018-03-07T18:49:23Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I don’t want to see anyone who is down on their luck or addicted or mentally ill and unable to work being out in the street freezing in the winter. If we could give each of them a clean safe room and a place to shower and sleep, they might be able to put their lives back in order and even if they can’t, it’s still the right thing to do. What happens when they shit / vomit in the corner of the once-clean safe room you gave them, and smash holes in the drywall, and steal the copper piping from the plumbing to buy crack? Do you give them another clean safe room the next week to try again? How many shiny new clean safe rooms should we give them to do this to? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-end-homelessness-in-america/810137/45 "2018-03-07T18:52:07Z")
Utah is a terrible place to be homeless. It gets freezing cold at night (tonight’s forecast is 32 degrees in Salt Lake City). I suspect most of the non-mentally-ill chronically homeless have migrated south to warmer climates. ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-end-homelessness-in-america/810137/46 "2018-03-07T19:25:20Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > If I were Emperor of America, here are my imperial decrees: > > Feel free to wander the streets all day, but don’t urinate or defecate in public, sleep on public property (unless you have a camping permit), be publicly intoxicated, loiter in one particular location, or aggressively panhandle (holding up signs is ok, just don’t be too pushy). If you fail to comply with these simple requirements, you will go either to jail or a mental facility. Occasional violations of the above rules can be overlooked, so long as they aren’t repeated too many times (a dozen strikes and you’re out). Well, that pretty much signals you’re not interested in them, you’re interested in not being inflicted by their presence. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-end-homelessness-in-america/810137/47 "2018-03-07T19:28:16Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > Well, that pretty much signals you’re not interested in them, you’re interested in not being inflicted by their presence. Aside from some things like the pushy panhandling thing, several of the things he wants to ban are already crimes. I’m okay with banning things that are crimes. ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-end-homelessness-in-america/810137/48 "2018-03-07T19:33:08Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Aside from some things like the pushy panhandling thing, several of the things he wants to ban are already crimes. I’m okay with banning things that are crimes. So what’s the problem? You’re implying homeless people are being given a pass when committing crimes. Otherwise they’d be in jail and you wouldn’t have to see them. Do you have any evidence of that? I see “homeless” people all the time where I live. Standing on intersections holding signs in places wealthy people frequent. I don’t see them anywhere else, though I’m not one to hang around ghetto areas of town. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-end-homelessness-in-america/810137/49 "2018-03-07T19:37:10Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Aside from some things like the pushy panhandling thing, several of the things he wants to ban are already crimes. I’m okay with banning things that are crimes. Unless you provide places to sleep, piss and shit, then you have just made living a crime for the homeless. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-end-homelessness-in-america/810137/50 "2018-03-07T19:39:42Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > So what’s the problem? You’re implying homeless people are being given a pass when committing crimes. Otherwise they’d be in jail and you wouldn’t have to see them. Do you have any evidence of that? > > I see “homeless” people all the time where I live. Standing on intersections holding signs in places wealthy people frequent. I don’t see them anywhere else, though I’m not one to hang around ghetto areas of town. I will freely confess that I don’t see a lot of provably homeless people around town. I do see people panhandling/holding up signs, but I don’t see people pissing anywhere or engaging in obviously criminal vagrancy. (Probably because Boise, Idaho only barely qualifies as a city much less a metropolis. Or alternatively it’s just that I don’t get out enough.) **Blalron** ’s list of rather extreme limitations suggests that he encounters a much more, er, squalid level of homeless than I encounter in my limited wanderings - and that he’s sick of them. Well, if he’s encountering people pissing and shitting in the street then I’m okay with going after them for doing that - it’s illegal. (And unsanitary.) The goal would be to stop the crime, not hide the poor. ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-end-homelessness-in-america/810137/51 "2018-03-07T19:41:15Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Unless you provide places to sleep, piss and shit, then you have just made living a crime for the homeless. Exactly, and his solution is throwing them in jail and mental institutions. Um, okay? This doesn’t really sound like a benevolent emperor who is just trying to be humane, it sounds like somebody that doesn’t want to be nuisanced. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-end-homelessness-in-america/810137/52 "2018-03-07T19:41:30Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Unless you provide places to sleep, piss and shit, then you have just made living a crime for the homeless. I’m on the pro-give-them-decent-housing side, incidentally. And if we do that and they still choose to eschew their bathrooms in favor of pissing in the street, at that point I feel it’s a matter for the psychiatrists and the courts. For lack of better options. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-end-homelessness-in-america/810137/53 "2018-03-07T19:44:15Z")
For all those who want to make a basic human function a crime, can you tell me how many public toilets exist in your town/city, and where they might be located? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-end-homelessness-in-america/810137/54 "2018-03-07T19:53:15Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > For all those who want to make a basic human function a crime, can you tell me how many public toilets exist in your town/city, and where they might be located? Hell, man, I don’t even know how many _buildings_ are in my city. But if you simply _have_ to go, there’s lots of department stores around that won’t notice if you go in and don’t buy anything. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-end-homelessness-in-america/810137/55 "2018-03-07T20:00:08Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > But if you simply _have_ to go, there’s lots of department stores around that won’t notice if you go in and don’t buy anything. They will notice if you look like a street person. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-end-homelessness-in-america/810137/56 "2018-03-07T20:04:03Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Hell, man, I don’t even know how many _buildings_ are in my city. But if you simply _have_ to go, there’s lots of department stores around that won’t notice if you go in and don’t buy anything. Is it o.k. if they slip into your house when nobody is there and use your toilet? Since you seem to think it’s o.k. for them to use other people’s property as long as they don’t get caught… ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-end-homelessness-in-america/810137/57 "2018-03-07T20:27:54Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > Exactly, and his solution is throwing them in jail and mental institutions. Um, okay? This doesn’t really sound like a benevolent emperor who is just trying to be humane, it sounds like somebody that doesn’t want to be nuisanced. I want to clarify: jail and mental institutions are an absolute last resort after an individual repeatedly demonstrates that they are unwilling or unable to comply with the law or take basic care of themself. The first resort is a fully furbished studio apartment and a case worker. If I were God-Emperor, I’d also make our jails significantly more humane than they currently are, my model would be [Norway](http://www.businessinsider.com/why-norways-prison-system-is-so-successful-2014-12). I’d do the same thing for mental institutions as well. We’re talking 5 star hotels, not “One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest” headed by Nurse Ratched. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-end-homelessness-in-america/810137/58 "2018-03-07T20:30:42Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > I want to clarify: jail and mental institutions are an absolute last resort after an individual repeatedly demonstrates that they are unwilling or unable to comply with the law or take basic care of themself. The first resort is a fully furbished studio apartment and a case worker. > > If I were God-Emperor, I’d also make our jails significantly more humane than they currently are, my model would be [Norway](http://www.businessinsider.com/why-norways-prison-system-is-so-successful-2014-12). I’d do the same thing for mental institutions as well. We’re talking 5 star hotels, not “One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest” headed by Nurse Ratched. That’s more like Motel Six one star hotel. I dount if you are in favor of spas, in room massage, 1000 count cotton sheets, etc. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-end-homelessness-in-america/810137/59 "2018-03-07T20:52:27Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > I want to clarify: jail and mental institutions are an absolute last resort after an individual repeatedly demonstrates that they are unwilling or unable to comply with the law or take basic care of themself. The first resort is a fully furbished studio apartment and a case worker. > > If I were God-Emperor, I’d also make our jails significantly more humane than they currently are, my model would be [Norway](http://www.businessinsider.com/why-norways-prison-system-is-so-successful-2014-12). I’d do the same thing for mental institutions as well. We’re talking 5 star hotels, not “One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest” headed by Nurse Ratched. I’m on board with that. I want a lot of due process protection but if due process is followed that seems reasonable after the first resort has been attempted. And I agree with you about the penal system as well. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-end-homelessness-in-america/810137/60 "2018-03-07T20:56:46Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > That’s more like Motel Six one star hotel. I dount if you are in favor of spas, in room massage, 1000 count cotton sheets, etc. I may have been exaggerating somewhat. U.S correctional facilities as they currently stand are barbaric and need to be reformed to be more like the Norway model. In comparison with a U.S jail though, a Norway jail looks downright utopian. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-end-homelessness-in-america/810137.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-end-homelessness-in-america/810137.md?page=4)