# We should give Israel to the Mormons **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 19, 2012, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-give-israel-to-the-mormons/641458 "2012-11-19T01:02:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-give-israel-to-the-mormons/641458/81 "2012-11-20T07:11:25Z")
p.s. The OP brought up Mormons in the 1st post and you mentioned Utah. Okay, now let’s look at the situation in Israel and Palestine. There are two groups who both claim historical right to the land. One side seems to be willing to co-exist with the other group in a land-sharing compact. That would be why one side pulled out of some the land, wouldn’t it now? One side began firing rockets, well, continued firing rockets. That’s the situation _now_. Sorry I didn’t lay out two freaking thousand years of history for you in one little post. Maybe I’ll do that next time. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-give-israel-to-the-mormons/641458/82 "2012-11-20T07:29:54Z")
Wait, what’s this about Utah? I thought Israel was going to change places with [Georgia.](http://snltranscripts.jt.org/75/75atruth.phtml) ---
**Author:** ![user\_hostile](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/user_hostile/32/474_2.png) [@user\_hostile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/user_hostile)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-give-israel-to-the-mormons/641458/83 "2012-11-20T07:42:36Z")
I was informed by a Mormon that since I was not a follower of their brand of folksy, communal utilitarian religion, I was considered a Gentile. I inquired, “Jews, too?” “Yup.” _Oy vey_! ---
**Author:** ![StJoan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@StJoan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StJoan)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-give-israel-to-the-mormons/641458/84 "2012-11-20T08:24:43Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > Or the Hindus. Or the Buddhists. Or the Zoroastrians. Sorry, but this Zoroastrian does not want it! 🙂 Instead, what say we persuade/compel Israel to give people in the occupied territories the right to vote for the government in Tel Aviv? Reunify, and battle out your problems in the Kessnet. Call the new country the republic of Israel and Palestine (or pick your favorite moniker), hold regular elections and have universal suffrage. Never understood why this simple solution has not occurred to anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-give-israel-to-the-mormons/641458/85 "2012-11-20T10:57:03Z")
Looks like it’s been thought of a [time](http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/Article.aspx?id=269204) or [two](http://www.pa-il.com/) already. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-give-israel-to-the-mormons/641458/86 "2012-11-20T13:03:47Z")
> [@R.P.McMurphy](#): > > I’ve thought for a long time that Jerusalem and Bethlehem should be given over to Disney to manage as a theme park. It’s worth noting that under the UN Partition Plan in the late 40s, Jerusalem and Bethlehem would have been internationally administered. The Jews accepted the Partition Plan and the Arabs rejected it and went to war instead. I really have a lot of contempt for people who see this conflict and assume that it’s just a matter of “two groups that cannot get along.” It’s like an adult who sees two children fighting and assumes that the problem is that the two children cannot get along. Sometimes that’s the problem, but sometimes one party is the aggressor and the other party is simply trying to defend himself as best he can. The fact is that the Arabs cannot get along with anyone, including their own people. Lots more Arabs have died and continue to die in the various civil wars and disputes in places like Lebanon and Syria than have died in the Arab/Israeli conflicts. If there weren’t a single Jew in the entire area, there would be at least as much fighting and killing and probably a lot more. ---
**Author:** ![StJoan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@StJoan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StJoan)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-give-israel-to-the-mormons/641458/87 "2012-11-20T13:11:29Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Looks like it’s been thought of a [time](http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/Article.aspx?id=269204) or [two](http://www.pa-il.com/) already. If the links are any indication, then not very clearly, unfortunately. Both articles conflate religious identity with national identity. I was thinking more along the lines of a secular republic, where the church / synagog / mosque is separate from the state, and the same civil, criminal, administrative and military legal codes are made applicable throughout the land. To put it tongue-in-cheek, one set of heroes and martyrs to defend the integrated nation’s borders, and one government to curse when things go wrong ;). Initially, it may be necessary to maintain different personal (family) laws for Muslims and Jews. E.g. in order to give legal status to the 2nd, 3rd and 4th wives of polygamous Muslims. But as the economy improves, and women become economically independent, I suspect that separate personal laws can also be phased out. Instead of the right of return, they can have a single constitutional commitment to temporarily sheltering Jewish or Islamic refugees of political turmoils throughout the world (your 2nd link mentions something like that). Right of residence is determined by the economic clout of the inhabitants, and not by government constructed and protected settlements. In other words, a single, non-corrupt, functioning capitalist democracy. How come they’ve never even got around to bringing that discussion to the table? ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-give-israel-to-the-mormons/641458/88 "2012-11-20T13:17:39Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I doubt that your army is going to be much of a threat, given that an army of [capuchins](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capuchin_monkey) will never drive tanks or fly planes and would even have trouble handling infantry weapons. They are _exploding_ capuchins, and the little blighters can get everywhere. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-give-israel-to-the-mormons/641458/89 "2012-11-20T13:23:00Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Yes, yes, that’s it . . . herd them all into one place . . . Haven’t they kind of done that themselves by choosing to make Israel the place of their last stand? ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-give-israel-to-the-mormons/641458/90 "2012-11-20T14:05:10Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > They are _exploding_ capuchins, and the little blighters can get everywhere. Monkeys or monks? Because when monks start fighting in Jerusalem, it can start a [war in the Crimea.](http://www.historytoday.com/richard-cavendish/crimean-war-begins) And [they’re still at it!](http://www.abc.net.au/news/2008-04-21/christians-brawl-inside-jerusalems-holy-sepulchre/2410238) ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-give-israel-to-the-mormons/641458/91 "2012-11-20T14:41:17Z")
> [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > Monkeys or monks? Because when monks start fighting in Jerusalem, it can start a [war in the Crimea.](http://www.historytoday.com/richard-cavendish/crimean-war-begins) > > And [they’re still at it!](http://www.abc.net.au/news/2008-04-21/christians-brawl-inside-jerusalems-holy-sepulchre/2410238) I’ll stick with my monkeys - they’ll be easier to control than that lot. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-give-israel-to-the-mormons/641458/92 "2012-11-20T15:17:35Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Oh, grow up. I quoted you because you were the one who mentioned the bit about Utah being predominantly Mormon. It was convenient to post that because, as anyone even vaguely aware of the history of the US’s westward expansion shold know, the Mormons were chased out of the country, being told “We don’t want you here.” Now that I’ve laid that out, you can scroll back through the thread and see where I specifically mentioned that Mormons just might not be all that keen being told that there’s a cool new homeland for them outside the US. Can you not see that a new homeland outside of the US specifically designed for Mormons will most likely be seen by the Mormons as being told they’re no longer welcome where they are? It’s that whole history thing. Perhaps you should check out some history for giggles. I smoked a lot of pot as a kid so I maybe I suggested that Mormons relocate out of Utah and just forgot. Can you please point me to the post where I suggested this? In what way is my comment about Utah offensive in any way? Is it supposed to be some secret that Utah has a majority Mormon population? I was merely pointing out in what is a bit of a joke thread that having a Jewish state (as in one of the United States) would be fine… after all we have a Mormon state. I think you are getting hot and bothered about things that were never said… or even implied. > [@](#): > > Oh, just because I mentioned the most recent attack on Jerusalem, that means I’m completely unaware of the various things that have gotten certain Palestinians antsy? Why don’t you simmer down? I really don’t know how long it’s been, but I’ve been saying for years and years that if some Jews from Israel want to go build settlements in Palestine, as opposed to “Israel proper,” then they should get permission to do so from the West Bank/Gaza strip governments and agree to abide by their laws instead of trying to expand “Jewish land.” Here is your criticism of Gaza: > [@](#): > > “In good faith” does not mean sending rockets willy-nilly into Israel for giggles and it certainly doesn’t include sending one into Jerusalem. Where is your balanced criticism of Israel in this case or do you think this particular burst of asshattery is onesided? It seemed like you were implying that the lack of good faith was one sided but if you can point me to the words where you say otherwise in this thread, I would appreciate it. > [@Monty](#): > > p.s. The OP brought up Mormons in the 1st post and you mentioned Utah. OK, I’m still not getting why that is so offensives. > [@](#): > > Okay, now let’s look at the situation in Israel and Palestine. There are two groups who both claim historical right to the land. One side seems to be willing to co-exist with the other group in a land-sharing compact. That would be why one side pulled out of some the land, wouldn’t it now? One side began firing rockets, well, continued firing rockets. That’s the situation _now_. > > Sorry I didn’t lay out two freaking thousand years of history for you in one little post. Maybe I’ll do that next time. This historical claim bullshit is not in the least bit convincing. The Italians have a historical claim to the land too. It doesn’t give them the right to go there and take it from the current occupants. I’m not saying this mean that Israel has to be relocated but it can’t enter negotiations expecting everyone to ignore that fact. They don’t have to give it back but they can’t pretend that they did nothing wrong when they took the land any more than Americans can pretend we did nothing wrong when we drove the Indians onto reservations. We are never going to give them back their land but at least we have the decency to feel bad about it. ---
**Author:** ![ed\_anger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bbce88/32.png) [@ed\_anger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ed_anger)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-give-israel-to-the-mormons/641458/93 "2012-11-20T15:47:44Z")
well, this thread went humorless, as expected. ---
**Author:** ![drastic\_quench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e36b37/32.png) [@drastic\_quench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drastic_quench)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-give-israel-to-the-mormons/641458/94 "2012-11-20T18:03:21Z")
Meanwhile, we’re doing nothing with ND, SD, MT, WY, and AK. Give each group their pick. I’d love to see a 95% Jewish Alaska. The lox industry would explode. And Palestinians would make great cowboys and ranch hands. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-give-israel-to-the-mormons/641458/95 "2012-11-20T18:27:41Z")
> [@drastic\_quench](#): > > Meanwhile, we’re doing nothing with ND, SD, MT, WY, and AK. Give each group their pick. I’d love to see a 95% Jewish Alaska. The lox industry would explode. And Palestinians would make great cowboys and ranch hands. Fiction got there first: > **[Amazon.com: The Yiddish Policemen's Union: A Novel (P.S.): 0000007149832:...](https://www.amazon.com/Yiddish-Policemens-Union-Novel-P-S/dp/0007149832)** > > Amazon.com: The Yiddish Policemen's Union: A Novel (P.S.): 0000007149832: Chabon, Michael: Books ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-give-israel-to-the-mormons/641458/96 "2012-11-20T21:02:32Z")
> [@StJoan](#): > > I was thinking more along the lines of a secular republic, where the church / synagog / mosque is separate from the state, and the same civil, criminal, administrative and military legal codes are made applicable throughout the land. That would get in the way of Israel being an officially Jewish state. Which I understand is sort of the point of there being an Israel in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-give-israel-to-the-mormons/641458/97 "2012-11-20T21:10:00Z")
> [@R.P.McMurphy](#): > > I’ve thought for a long time that Jerusalem and Bethlehem should be given over to Disney to manage as a theme park. Let everyone come and visit and have a good time. Jews, Muslims, Catholics, Protestants, Mormons anybody that traces their religious beliefs to the area. Then the Church of Stop Shopping would get offended. > [@Monty](#): > > That would be why one side pulled out of some the land, wouldn’t it now? One side began firing rockets, well, continued firing rockets. That’s the situation _now_. Some of the land? You mean occupied Palestinian territories? > [@brazil84](#): > > I really have a lot of contempt for people who see this conflict and assume that it’s just a matter of “two groups that cannot get along.” It’s like an adult who sees two children fighting and assumes that the problem is that the two children cannot get along. Sometimes that’s the problem, but sometimes one party is the aggressor and the other party is simply trying to defend himself as best he can. I agree completely. I just disagree as to which party is the belligerent. Norman Finkelstein provides some background [here](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jm3j6ZwPrcQ). ---
**Author:** ![Lalosantillana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ea666f/32.png) [@Lalosantillana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lalosantillana)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-give-israel-to-the-mormons/641458/98 "2012-11-20T23:11:05Z")
I do not agree. Jews have live in middle east since the times of Abraham, so they deserve the lands they have now, same for palestinians. the main problem is religion. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-give-israel-to-the-mormons/641458/99 "2012-11-21T09:19:10Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > I agree completely. I just disagree as to which party is the belligerent. Norman Finkelstein provides some background Please summarize his evidence and argument. TIA. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-give-israel-to-the-mormons/641458/100 "2012-11-21T12:15:33Z")
Does anybody want to give this the Pit treatment? > [@](#): > > Because of this admixture of the religious sentiment, it will be rather difficult for a certain class of people to scrutinize modern Political Zionism; they have been too well propagandized into believing that political Zionism and the “return” promised by the prophets are the same thing. Having succumbed to the initial confusion of mistaking Judah for Israel they have entirely mistaken the ancient writings that relate to these two and have made the single tribe of Judah (whence comes the name Jew) the hub around which all history and humanity swing. Judah was the tribe with which Israel could not live in peace over two thousand years ago, and which has the fateful gift of stirring up the same kind of dissension today. And yet no one ever thought of charging the Ten Tribes of Israel with "anti-Semitism. Or maybe this bit? > [@](#): > > A knowledge of Political Zionism is worth while also as an authoritative illustration of what the Jew does when he is in power. Heretofore there has been Russia to illustrate this, but now there is Palestine. With every fact against them, with every traveler and observer giving them the lie direct, there are still Jewish spokesmen and poor befuddled “Gentile fronts” who insist that Bolshevism is not Jewish and that Russia is not now governed by Jews. It is just this constant denial of facts, this failure to use their opportunity to be honest, that is going to be the judgement of Jewish leaders. Bolshevism all over the world, not in Russia only, but in New York, in Chicago, in New Orleans, in San Francisco, is Jewish. > > However, there is no need further to insist upon that, except occasionally to add confirmatory illustrations of it. More to the present point is Palestine. It will be very difficult for the most irresponsible Jewish spokesman to deny that Palestine is Jewish. The government is Jewish, the plan of procedure is Jewish, the methods used are Jewish. Does anyone rise to deny that? Scarcely. > > Very well, Palestine will do to illustrate the genius of the Jew when he comes to power. Come on, you defenders of Zion, vent a little and tell us all we’re anti-semites. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-give-israel-to-the-mormons/641458.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-give-israel-to-the-mormons/641458.md?page=6)