# We should have housing policies like Tokyo **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 7, 2019, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-have-housing-policies-like-tokyo/838291 "2019-08-07T14:07:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2019, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-have-housing-policies-like-tokyo/838291/181 "2019-08-22T10:41:14Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Psychology and economics do not exist outside the US? DAMN NOW YOU TELL ME! Anyone able to translate this one? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2019, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-have-housing-policies-like-tokyo/838291/182 "2019-08-22T12:55:48Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > Anyone able to translate this one? Presumably in places outside the United States, the only land left unbuilt is streets and parks, and it’s all already high rises (by US standards). I don’t doubt it, but I expect psychology and economics (if there is any difference between the two terms) operate in different markets. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2019, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-have-housing-policies-like-tokyo/838291/183 "2019-08-22T13:13:00Z")
If the only unbuilt places in the United States are indeed parks and streets, then logically the only building permits for housing in the Bay Area must be for housing destroyed by disasters like fire and earthquakes. So, is all new housing in the Bay Area actually just replacements for destroyed homes? Like, when the mayor of San Jose says he wants to build 10,000 new units, that will also require the destruction of 10,000 old units? ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2019, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-have-housing-policies-like-tokyo/838291/184 "2019-08-22T20:49:35Z")
DrDeth, here is an op-ed written by Krugman in 2000 in response to problems in San Francisco. It doesn’t have the exact words “rent control leads to housing shortages” but it comes pretty close: \*The analysis of rent control is among the best-understood issues in all of economics, and – among economists, anyway – one of the least controversial. In 1992 a poll of the American Economic Association found 93 percent of its members agreeing that ‘‘a ceiling on rents reduces the quality and quantity of housing.’’ \* > **[Opinion | Reckonings; A Rent Affair (Published 2000)](https://www.nytimes.com/2000/06/07/opinion/reckonings-a-rent-affair.html)** > > Paul Krugman Op-Ed column comments on June 6 article on San Francisco's housing shortage and skyrocketing rents; says it is city where technology-fueled housing boom has collided with Draconian rent-control, whose adverse side effects illustrate... ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2019, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-have-housing-policies-like-tokyo/838291/185 "2019-08-22T21:10:45Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > If the only unbuilt places in the United States are indeed parks and streets, then logically the only building permits for housing in the Bay Area must be for housing destroyed by disasters like fire and earthquakes. > > So, is all new housing in the Bay Area actually just replacements for destroyed homes? Like, when the mayor of San Jose says he wants to build 10,000 new units, that will also require the destruction of 10,000 old units? There’s this hip new website called Zillow. You can look for just open lots/land. Unsurprisingly, there’s hundreds of hits in the bay area. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2019, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-have-housing-policies-like-tokyo/838291/186 "2019-08-22T21:15:22Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > There’s this hip new website called Zillow. You can look for just open lots/land. Unsurprisingly, there’s hundreds of hits in the bay area. I’ve been stridently told that this is not the case. Who am I to believe: those who disagree with selling-settled economic principles, or the lyin’ internet? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2019, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-have-housing-policies-like-tokyo/838291/187 "2019-08-23T18:18:33Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > DrDeth, here is an op-ed written by Krugman in 2000 in response to problems in San Francisco. It doesn’t have the exact words “rent control leads to housing shortages” but it comes pretty close: > > \*The analysis of rent control is among the best-understood issues in all of economics, and – among economists, anyway – one of the least controversial. In 1992 a poll of the American Economic Association found 93 percent of its members agreeing that ‘‘a ceiling on rents reduces the quality and quantity of housing.’’ \* > > [https://www.nytimes.com/2000/06/07/opinion/reckonings-a-rent-affair.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2000/06/07/opinion/reckonings-a-rent-affair.html) Yes, it is well known that economists dont like price controls. And rent controls could well be considered a type of price control. But of course supply and demand doesnt apply to something like housing, even with no government rules, it takes a year or more to build new housing. However, with many economists, they arent specialists in urban planning. Would you go to Michael W. Young, Nobel laureate in medicine for your heart condition? Just like Linus Pauling, one of the great minds- who went out of his specialty with Vitamin C. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2019, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-have-housing-policies-like-tokyo/838291/188 "2019-08-23T18:20:06Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > There’s this hip new website called Zillow. You can look for just open lots/land. Unsurprisingly, there’s hundreds of hits in the bay area. How many are suited for a 20 story apartment complex? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2019, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-have-housing-policies-like-tokyo/838291/189 "2019-08-23T18:47:27Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > How many are suited for a 20 story apartment complex? Are those the goalposts that you’re using now? Didn’t realize that was the requirement. How many would I have to come up with for you to concede that your blanket statement was wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2019, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-have-housing-policies-like-tokyo/838291/190 "2019-08-23T18:47:43Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > But of course supply and demand doesnt apply to something like housing, even with no government rules, it takes a year or more to build new housing. Most goods take time to produce. Unless the demand is very volatile, the law of supply and demand is still going to apply. It’s another form of investment. The developer who built my subdivision lives down the street from me. He and his partners predicted (correctly) that demand for housing in my suburb would go up, so they sunk a lot of money into building houses, including the one where my wife and I live. He’s kind of a funny guy. He’s now retired, and spends his time keeping an eye on the neighborhood. Which is kind of un-nerving when he knows when everyone leaves for work, what times of day I walk the dog, who is doing remodeling, etc., and kind of reassuring when he called the cops when somebody broke into my neighbor’s house, because he knew they were on vacation. And of course new housing is not the only kind of housing there is. Demand goes up, my house appreciates in value, I have a greater incentive to sell, or rent out a room, or something like that. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2019, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-have-housing-policies-like-tokyo/838291/191 "2019-08-28T15:56:27Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yes, it is well known that economists dont like price controls. And rent controls could well be considered a type of price control. But of course supply and demand doesnt apply to something like housing, even with no government rules, it takes a year or more to build new housing. > > However, with many economists, they arent specialists in urban planning. Would you go to Michael W. Young, Nobel laureate in medicine for your heart condition? Just like Linus Pauling, one of the great minds- who went out of his specialty with Vitamin C. So then why ask for a direct quote from Krugman if you’re going to ignore it anyway? Just state up front that you don’t care what economists say. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2019, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-have-housing-policies-like-tokyo/838291/192 "2019-08-28T19:45:52Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > So then why ask for a direct quote from Krugman if you’re going to ignore it anyway? Just state up front that you don’t care what economists say. Well, that wasnt a paper or study that he wrote, true? Just a Op ed? And he gets lots of stuff wrong, but first he admits he doesnt know much about the issue: \*Not that I have any special knowledge about San Francisco’s housing market – in fact, as of yesterday morning I didn’t know a thing about it. \* Then "_After all, the sort of landlord behavior described in the article – demanding that prospective tenants supply resumes and credit reports, that they dress nicely and act enthusiastic – doesn’t happen in uncontrolled housing markets. "_- boy is that wrong. Pretty much, everywhere in CA, rent control or no, you need a credit report to rent any decent apartment or house. Then he goes on "_And so I had no doubts about what I would find after a bit of checking – namely, that San Francisco is a city where a technology-fueled housing boom has collided with a draconian rent-control law."_ Draconian?:dubious: SF follows CA state law, which means no unit built after 1979 is covered. And only for multi-plexes. Apt are hard to get and rent in SF not mostly due to rent control, but due to not enuf space for building. SF is very small and very crowded. So, here we have a perfect example of the Pauling effect. A expert in one field trying to apply his expertise to something outside his speciality. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2019, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-have-housing-policies-like-tokyo/838291/193 "2019-08-28T20:37:40Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Well, that wasnt a paper or study that he wrote, true? Just a Op ed? And he gets lots of stuff wrong, but first he admits he doesnt know much about the issue: > > \*Not that I have any special knowledge about San Francisco’s housing market – in fact, as of yesterday morning I didn’t know a thing about it. > > - > > Then "_After all, the sort of landlord behavior described in the article – demanding that prospective tenants supply resumes and credit reports, that they dress nicely and act enthusiastic – doesn’t happen in uncontrolled housing markets. "_- boy is that wrong. Pretty much, everywhere in CA, rent control or no, you need a credit report to rent any decent apartment or house. > > Then he goes on "_And so I had no doubts about what I would find after a bit of checking – namely, that San Francisco is a city where a technology-fueled housing boom has collided with a draconian rent-control law."_ > > Draconian?:dubious: SF follows CA state law, which means no unit built after 1979 is covered. And only for multi-plexes. > > Apt are hard to get and rent in SF not mostly due to rent control, but due to not enuf space for building. SF is very small and very crowded. > > So, here we have a perfect example of the Pauling effect. A expert in one field trying to apply his expertise to something outside his speciality. Right - not enough houses. Luckily, there’s lots of room in SF and the metro area to build up. Unluckily, there are lots of NIMBY folks opposing this for selfish reasons, limiting the overall prosperity. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2019, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-have-housing-policies-like-tokyo/838291/194 "2019-08-29T00:46:45Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Well, that wasnt a paper or study that he wrote, true? Just a Op ed? And he gets lots of stuff wrong, but first he admits he doesnt know much about the issue: > > \*Not that I have any special knowledge about San Francisco’s housing market – in fact, as of yesterday morning I didn’t know a thing about it. > \* > > Then "_After all, the sort of landlord behavior described in the article – demanding that prospective tenants supply resumes and credit reports, that they dress nicely and act enthusiastic – doesn’t happen in uncontrolled housing markets. "_- boy is that wrong. Pretty much, everywhere in CA, rent control or no, you need a credit report to rent any decent apartment or house. > > Then he goes on "_And so I had no doubts about what I would find after a bit of checking – namely, that San Francisco is a city where a technology-fueled housing boom has collided with a draconian rent-control law."_ > > Draconian?:dubious: SF follows CA state law, which means no unit built after 1979 is covered. And only for multi-plexes. > > Apt are hard to get and rent in SF not mostly due to rent control, but due to not enuf space for building. SF is very small and very crowded. > > So, here we have a perfect example of the Pauling effect. A expert in one field trying to apply his expertise to something outside his speciality. Here’s some more incompetent economists who looked at San Francisco and came to the same finding as Krugman. I suppose this means that they are incompetent as well, because… well, I can’t wait to hear why. > **[DMQ.pdf](https://web.stanford.edu/~diamondr/DMQ.pdf)** > > 1452.95 KB ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2019, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-have-housing-policies-like-tokyo/838291/195 "2019-08-29T04:02:36Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Right - not enough houses. Luckily, there’s lots of room in SF and the metro area to build up. Unluckily, there are lots of NIMBY folks opposing this for selfish reasons, limiting the overall prosperity. Really in the SF metro area there is lots of vacant land that isnt parks or greenbelt? Or do you mean the folks who bought a $2M house with a view- and doesnt want that view obscured by a 80 story complex? For which there would be no parking and not enough streets to handle the extra traffic? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2019, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-have-housing-policies-like-tokyo/838291/196 "2019-08-29T04:07:32Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Here’s some more incompetent economists who looked at San Francisco and came to the same finding as Krugman. I suppose this means that they are incompetent as well, because… well, I can’t wait to hear why. > > [https://web.stanford.edu/~diamondr/DMQ.pdf](https://web.stanford.edu/~diamondr/DMQ.pdf) I didnt say he was “incompetent”. Linus Pauling was one of the greatest scientists of our time. But he stepped out of his speciality and failed. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2019, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-have-housing-policies-like-tokyo/838291/197 "2019-08-29T06:23:09Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Really in the SF metro area there is lots of vacant land that isnt parks or greenbelt? Now you’ve restricted your claim down to the metro area? That’s an entirely different claim than the SF bay area. Will the next move to restrict to a particular address? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2019, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-have-housing-policies-like-tokyo/838291/198 "2019-08-29T09:41:01Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Really in the SF metro area there is lots of vacant land that isnt parks or greenbelt? > > Or do you mean the folks who bought a $2M house with a view- and doesnt want that view obscured by a 80 story complex? For which there would be no parking and not enough streets to handle the extra traffic? I mean that government policy has created lots of artificial restrictions (i.e. single-family zoning) that restrict the market’s ability to set “natural” prices for housing that would result in greater affordability and prosperity overall. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2019, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-have-housing-policies-like-tokyo/838291/199 "2019-08-29T10:15:09Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Or do you mean the folks who bought a $2M house with a view- and doesnt want that view obscured by a 80 story complex? If you’re just going to be dramatic, you should say it’s an 8,000 story complex. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2019, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-have-housing-policies-like-tokyo/838291/200 "2019-08-29T10:20:57Z")
80 story complexes absolutely should be legal everywhere along the coasts\* of urban California, _especially_ if they don’t have parking, but it would be nice if even, say, modest 3 or 4-story buildings were legal everywhere in an urban area. People throw fits over those too. Basically anything at all that changes the “character of the community.” \*California is only getting hotter. Pushing all development out into areas that are going to be as hot as Phoenix is nonsensical. Cramming as much as possible into the narrow strip of the state that has its climate moderated by the ocean is common sense. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-have-housing-policies-like-tokyo/838291.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-have-housing-policies-like-tokyo/838291.md?page=11)