# We should have housing policies like Tokyo **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 7, 2019, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-have-housing-policies-like-tokyo/838291 "2019-08-07T14:07:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2019, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-have-housing-policies-like-tokyo/838291/21 "2019-08-07T17:21:47Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Then what did you mean by:" I think those local governments need to force residents to accept new housing developments that they otherwise wouldn’t want, and I’m not sure how that works in a democracy. "? That means I don’t know how to solve the problem. Housing prices are high because residents by and large want to keep supply low. The free market isn’t solving this problem by providing more supply because the government is “in the way,” but the government is in the way because that’s how democracy works. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2019, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-have-housing-policies-like-tokyo/838291/22 "2019-08-07T17:23:29Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > This seems like a distinction without a difference. Right now local governments block development because that’s what the voting residents want those local governments to do. If the government tries to get out of the way and allow development against the wishes of the residents, they would be voted out and replaced with people who would go back to blocking development… Sorry, I’ve thought about this statement a bit more now. A couple things, first, this assumes that the majority of people who live in an area want to maintain their property values on their 3 acre estates. The majority of people in the area probably do not live in such, and therefore, they are also voters who would not seek to replace the politicians who allowed development. Also, if development is allowed, then that brings in a whole new population of people who also vote, and will be inclined to vote for the politicians who allowed them to move in. No, the problem isn’t with the voters, it is with the donors. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2019, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-have-housing-policies-like-tokyo/838291/23 "2019-08-07T17:33:19Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Sorry, I’ve thought about this statement a bit more now. > > A couple things, first, this assumes that the majority of people who live in an area want to maintain their property values on their 3 acre estates. The majority of people in the area probably do not live in such, and therefore, they are also voters who would not seek to replace the politicians who allowed development. > > Also, if development is allowed, then that brings in a whole new population of people who also vote, and will be inclined to vote for the politicians who allowed them to move in. > > No, the problem isn’t with the voters, it is with the donors. I only know my own local politics but I don’t have a 3 acre estate, in fact I bought the cheapest house on the block and I’ve still benefited mightily from rising housing prices. Residents here are very much opposed to new development, and the only people who actually want new development are people who can’t afford to live here but would like to. However, I see your point. I live in an upscale suburb where 95% of voters are also homeowners. The calculus probably changes when the majority of residents are renters – they benefit nothing from rising housing prices. In that case, the push against development would be real estate barons. It looks like the home ownership rate is somewhere between 40 and 45 percent, and I imagine those folks are more active in local politics than renters. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2019, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-have-housing-policies-like-tokyo/838291/24 "2019-08-07T17:38:43Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > 1. Shrinking population. Not in major cities, and definitely not in the Tokyo metro area (see my post above). > [@](#): > > 1. Earthquakes - Eyeballing it from satellite view, probably about 20% of the island is concrete. Crossing Tokyo takes about 2 hours on a train with no stops. They simply can’t build tall and pack people into a small, confined area. The cities of the country have to be giant sprawls of small apartment buildings and the economy has to operate around the principal of decentralization because any tall buildings would get destroyed by their earthquakes. [This](https://skyticket.jp/guide/20548) is the area I grew up in. The 3rd building from the left is a department store, the others are all apartments and condos. > [@](#): > > There’s no “downtown Tokyo”. The whole city is a kaleidoscope of office buildings, apartments, convenience stores, red light districts, schools, temples, and hospitals. New York has expensive real estate because you need to get into Manhattan. There’s no similar pinch point for Tokyo, it’s all relatively even across the whole sprawling mass. Your offices could be almost any direction from where you live no matter where in the city you live. The [Special Wards](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_wards_of_Tokyo) is the downtown area. Granted, that area is about 10 times larger than Manhattan, but there is a definite flow of people into it during the day. > [@](#): > > 1. Japan has a history/culture of disposable construction. They used to build using paper and minimalist wood structures on the basis that the people expected their houses to be mostly demolished by the next earthquake, typhoon, fire, or war between daimyo. Their construction philosophy was not to create structures that could withstand that all, it was to build something that would simply melt under the abuse and could then be easily patched back together with some paper and (figurative) duct tape. From what I have been told, that philosophy continues over to modern day. They destroy and construct new buildings like they’re tissue paper. You’ll turn a corner and a mall that was there for 4 years will be a perfect flat patch of dirt, one day. The mall was there last week, now it’s pristinely gone and you could start a corn field in the place that it had been. In another month, there could be a full and complete apartment building in its place. It’s relatively amazing, but a large component of it is that they build cheap and they don’t do custom, it’s all prefab parts and stamp-out designs that have been done before thousands of times by the same company. The condo building I grew up in inTokyo was built in the mid 1970s, and it’s still there. So is the 8-story apartment building across the street which is even older. The department store I used to go to was renovated a few years ago, and they added a few floors on top of it, but the lower floors are mostly the same. They did completely rebuild the train station, but mainly because the train tracks used to be at ground level, and they elevated the whole railroad to improve traffic. I should also point out that Japan is home to the oldest wooden buildings in the world. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2019, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-have-housing-policies-like-tokyo/838291/25 "2019-08-07T17:39:32Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > It looks like the home ownership rate is somewhere between 40 and 45 percent, and I imagine those folks are more active in local politics than renters. I forgot some words, this is in San Fransisco. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2019, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-have-housing-policies-like-tokyo/838291/26 "2019-08-07T17:58:37Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > Not in major cities, and definitely not in the Tokyo metro area (see my post above). Urban flow is not unique to Japan. Is it liable to be more or less extreme when you have an expanding population or a shrinking population? > [@](#): > > [This](https://skyticket.jp/guide/20548) is the area I grew up in. The 3rd building from the left is a department store, the others are all apartments and condos. > > The [Special Wards](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_wards_of_Tokyo) is the downtown area. Granted, that area is about 10 times larger than Manhattan, but there is a definite flow of people into it during the day. > The condo building I grew up in inTokyo was built in the mid 1970s, and it’s still there. So is the 8-story apartment building across the street which is even older. The department store I used to go to was renovated a few years ago, and they added a few floors on top of it, but the lower floors are mostly the same. They did completely rebuild the train station, but mainly because the train tracks used to be at ground level, and they elevated the whole railroad to improve traffic. > > I should also point out that Japan is home to the oldest wooden buildings in the world. None of this is false, but none of it really counters anything that I said. There are exceptions. Tokyo isn’t a perfect kaleidoscope - there is an area with actual skyscrapers, for example, but there’s also Hitachi Island off in the middle of nowhere and millions of small businesses, tens of thousands of bank outlets (at least, when I left), and tens of thousands of medium-sized businesses spread out all over the hell. I took a guy from Seattle to Kichijoji and his mind broke because he realized that we’d just rode 30 minutes “outside” of the city and the Kichijoji area around the train station plus all of the apartment buildings, schools, etc. in the neighborhood were basically as large and economically important as the city of Seattle. (I have no idea if that’s true, but that was his impression.) And there’s probably 200 or so places like Kichijoji within Tokyo (including everything within the concrete swathe - Hiratsuka to Shibukawa to Hitachinaka - not just the legal boundaries). And that’s excluding everything within the Yamanote circle. From an American view, looking at how an American city is organized, Tokyo is flat. It’s ten stories of people for as far as the eye can see in every direction. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2019, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-have-housing-policies-like-tokyo/838291/27 "2019-08-07T19:08:12Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > That means I don’t know how to solve the problem. Housing prices are high because residents by and large want to keep supply low. The free market isn’t solving this problem by providing more supply because the government is “in the way,” but the government is in the way because that’s how democracy works. Dial back democracy in favor of property rights. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2019, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-have-housing-policies-like-tokyo/838291/28 "2019-08-07T19:45:49Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Dial back democracy in favor of property rights. Huh, I think you just coined the libertarian motto. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2019, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-have-housing-policies-like-tokyo/838291/29 "2019-08-08T00:44:54Z")
> [@Sage Rat](#): > > The inventor did not acknowledge that and history pretty clearly shows that the invisible hand works - or, at least, I doubt that you are a subsistence farmer in serfdom to a wealthy landowner. I’m not, but then again we all cut the heads off our wealthiest landowners some while back. Nothing invisible about it, that would have defeated the purpose. > [@RickJay](#): > > I don’t even understand what this means. What are you saying doesn’t work? How does it not work? Can you even say what the “invisible hand” is supposed to do? Capitalist apologists and assorted libertarians opine that an absolutely unregulated free market innately and implicitly creates the best results for everyone involved because… something something. In the real world, self-defeating greed and dishonesty both exist, as do profiteering and price-fixing. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2019, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-have-housing-policies-like-tokyo/838291/30 "2019-08-08T00:46:17Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > At the expense of supply. > > Is it a reasonable assumption on my part that your extremely narrow answer is intended to convey that in a city with high rents, you would prefer to cap the increases in rents, knowing that shortages of rental units is an easily foreseeable consequence; rather than increase supply, knowing that lower costs would logically follow? Porque no los dos ? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2019, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-have-housing-policies-like-tokyo/838291/31 "2019-08-08T01:21:04Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Porque no los dos ? I am not sure if you’re being frivolous or if you are unaware of the basic principles of economics. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2019, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-have-housing-policies-like-tokyo/838291/32 "2019-08-08T01:51:26Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Capitalist apologists and assorted libertarians opine that an absolutely unregulated free market innately and implicitly creates the best results for everyone involved because… something something. In the real world, self-defeating greed and dishonesty both exist, as do profiteering and price-fixing. I don’t think anyone says that. In a completely unregulated market, Manhattan would find Central Park quickly covered in 90 story supertall residential towers. However bad or poorly thought out zoning laws can also stifle growth and lead to unintended consequences. I’ll try and find the link, but there was a recent article about many cities doing away with laws restricting housing to single family homes. Yes, everyone loves a house, but single family homes with yards quickly leads to urban sprawl. OTOH, a neighborhood of 20 story luxury yuppie ghettos can quickly tax local infrastructure and transform communities in ways that not everyone thinks is better. > [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > 1. Earthquakes - Eyeballing it from satellite view, probably about 20% of the island is concrete. Crossing Tokyo takes about 2 hours on a train with no stops. They simply can’t build tall and pack people into a small, confined area. [This buildings look pretty tall to me.](https://www.japan-guide.com/e/e2164.html) Actually, properly designed skyscrapers can often be better for resisting earthquakes than shorter masonry and concrete structures. Whereas a lower structure can shake apart and crumble like a house of cards, tall buildings are already designed to sway with the wind somewhat. A lot of skyscrapers in earthquake zones are built on springs or with large weights acting as dampers to prevent the building from oscillating at its resonance frequency. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2019, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-have-housing-policies-like-tokyo/838291/33 "2019-08-08T02:04:22Z")
Yeah then you’ll be able to reject tenants based on their race, and say it to their face. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2019, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-have-housing-policies-like-tokyo/838291/34 "2019-08-08T03:07:51Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > [This buildings look pretty tall to me.](https://www.japan-guide.com/e/e2164.html) Nor is Kansas flat: [https://images.app.goo.gl/mt7KndoN6cwAH3nx9](https://images.app.goo.gl/mt7KndoN6cwAH3nx9) > [@](#): > > Actually, properly designed skyscrapers can often be better for resisting earthquakes than shorter masonry and concrete structures. Whereas a lower structure can shake apart and crumble like a house of cards, tall buildings are already designed to sway with the wind somewhat. A lot of skyscrapers in earthquake zones are built on springs or with large weights acting as dampers to prevent the building from oscillating at its resonance frequency. [http://thehungrysuitcase.com/why-is-tokyos-skyline-so-boring/](http://thehungrysuitcase.com/why-is-tokyos-skyline-so-boring/) It’s the conventional explanation, regardless of whether (in the 21st century) it’s a required answer or an answer that would make sense under Japanese construction culture. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2019, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-have-housing-policies-like-tokyo/838291/35 "2019-08-08T03:09:31Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > I’m not, but then again we all cut the heads off our wealthiest landowners some while back. Nothing invisible about it, that would have defeated the purpose. Yep, I remember that time when the people rose up and murdered George Washington. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2019, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-have-housing-policies-like-tokyo/838291/36 "2019-08-08T06:38:48Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I don’t even understand what this means. What are you saying doesn’t work? How does it not work? Can you even say what the “invisible hand” is supposed to do? The Invisible Hand is supposed to touch you in your most private places. And you can’t see it coming. Because it’s Invisible. But that’s OK because the Invisible Hand sees all, the Invisible Hand knows all. All praise Invisible Hand! ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2019, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-have-housing-policies-like-tokyo/838291/37 "2019-08-08T06:54:14Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > I’m not, but then again we all cut the heads off our wealthiest landowners some while back. Nothing invisible about it, that would have defeated the purpose. > [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Yep, I remember that time when the people rose up and murdered George Washington. If I recall, Kobal2 is in France so what he said was quite literally true - there was a time when the wealthiest landowners were parted from their heads by the guillotine. Or did you forget that not everyone here is American? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2019, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-have-housing-policies-like-tokyo/838291/38 "2019-08-08T08:42:37Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > If I recall, Kobal2 is in France so what he said was quite literally true - there was a time when the wealthiest landowners were parted from their heads by the guillotine. Or did you forget that not everyone here is American? Well, George Washington and the others told the French that they were doing it wrong, at the time, and that’s because they were doing it wrong. It’s fair to tell Commies that Communism plain off doesn’t work, because no one has ever made it work. Capitalism, obviously, does work if done right. Usually, it is done right. And, even when done wrong, usually the main negative is pollution. But, frankly, none of that has anything to do with the French Revolution. That was a problem of classism. Classism is antithetical to Capitalism. Capitalism believes in a meritocracy. Socialism always had a hard time gaining much territory in the US because we started on Capitalism earlier than Europe and never had a local nobility. Classism went the way of the dodo before Socialism ever gained prominence and meritocracy was a significant component of the American system. Meritocracy is a far better system than Socialism. At least partly because the Socialists never really had a solution for hating classism beyond killing the upper class. Neither did the French, during the French revolution. Hating the nobility isn’t Capitalistic nor anti-Capitalistic, it’s just a proper and reasonable realization that class-based society is stupid. But the solution to that is to abandon class-based societies, not to go on a murderous circle-jerk. Meritocracy pops right out of Capitalism. I don’t know that Smith talked about it, but it follows directly from his lessons. He was a smart one. Robespierre, not so much. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2019, 9:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-have-housing-policies-like-tokyo/838291/39 "2019-08-08T09:14:57Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > I’m just not sure that getting those local governments out of the way would fix it; rather, I think those local governments need to force residents to accept new housing developments that they otherwise wouldn’t want, and I’m not sure how that works in a democracy. I’m curious how the article suggest we overcome that. Realistically, it will be very hard to overcome in the political culture and system of the USA. There are too many “veto points” that block new things from being done, and too much reliance on “local control” of important regional/state powers. Even though the states are sovereign over local government, and can override it as they see fit, most of them are constrained by self-imposed (and very difficult to change) limits on this authority. This is a pretty unlikely solution, really, but the only chance I see for reform is to eventually convince federal judges that the use of zoning powers to block most new housing is a _de facto_ control on internal migration, which is unconstitutional. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2019, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-have-housing-policies-like-tokyo/838291/40 "2019-08-08T11:54:06Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Sorry, I’ve thought about this statement a bit more now. > > A couple things, first, this assumes that the majority of people who live in an area want to maintain their property values on their 3 acre estates. The majority of people in the area probably do not live in such, and therefore, they are also voters who would not seek to replace the politicians who allowed development. > > Also, if development is allowed, then that brings in a whole new population of people who also vote, and will be inclined to vote for the politicians who allowed them to move in. Maintaining property values on 3 acre estates is not the only reason people block development. I know lots of renters who are against “development” in their neighborhood of approximately 2-3000 sq foot lots.The development they are opposed to involves such things as replacing a two unit building with a four-unit building. Remember, they’re renters, so they don’t care about property values - they care about traffic, the availability of street parking etc. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-have-housing-policies-like-tokyo/838291.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-should-have-housing-policies-like-tokyo/838291.md?page=3)