# We tortured kids to get their fathers to talk! God have mercy on our souls **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 11, 2004, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-tortured-kids-to-get-their-fathers-to-talk-god-have-mercy-on-our-souls/254592 "2004-07-11T18:46:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-tortured-kids-to-get-their-fathers-to-talk-god-have-mercy-on-our-souls/254592/1 "2004-07-11T18:46:28Z")
I don’t even believe in God, but right now, it seems like it’s an appropriate thing to say. Certainly no one else will have mercy on our souls. I know this was posted in another thread, and elucidator’s rant was one of the finest I’ve ever read, but this deserves attention with a descriptive subject line (though yours was much more poetic elucidator). I’m so heartbroken now that my boiling anger while reading this has already turned to deep, deep depression. > [@](#): > > [http://www.thismodernworld.com/](http://www.thismodernworld.com/) > > July 08, 2004 > > German TV news report (and take a deep breath, folks): Children at Abu Ghraib > (Note: this entry posted by Bob Harris) > > Three days ago, a German TV newsmagazine called Report Mainz broadcast an eight-minute segment reporting that the **International Red Cross found at least 107 children in coaliton-administered detention centers in Iraq.** > > The report also quotes from a yet-unpublished June 2004 UNICEF report, which (as near as I can tell through my crappy German) confirms that **children were routinely arrested and “interned” in a camp in Um-Qasr.** UNICEF seems particularly vexed with the “internment” status, since that means indefinite detention. > > Another storm seems about to begin. Possibly a large one. > > Even if you have no German at all, hit the link and watch the video. (Click where it says “Beitrag ansehen” and you’ll get a RealVideo stream. I’d include a direct link but the server seems to require you to link from the page.) There’s some footage of the internment camps here that you’re not likely to see on American TV. The link also includes a complete transcript, in German. > > In addition to the Red Cross and UNICEF concerns, Report Mainz broadcast an original interview with U.S. Army Sgt. Samuel Provance, who was stationed for six months at Abu Ghraib and later quite famously blew the whistle about abuses there and the subsequent cover-up. In this interview, **Provance confirms the presence of teenagers in Abu Ghraib, describing the torture-by-cold-and-exposure of a teenage boy in order to get his father to talk.** > > The General Secretary of Amnesty International in Germany, Barbara Lochbihler, is finally shown demanding a full accounting from the U.S. government, describing the information as “scandalous.” > > A few caveats: I haven’t found where Provance mentioned young people at Abu Ghraib until now, and another witness in the report describes “hundreds” of pre-pubescents at Abu Ghraib, which tingles my smell detector. Then again, I wouldn’t have believed in Stack-The-Iraqis at first, either. > > There’s also the point that a 15-year-old can damn sure fire a gun. But even so, since 70-90 percent of those at Abu Ghraib were innocent, if at least 107 kids were locked up, the best-case scenario is still that the U.S. has interned a boatload of innocent Iraqi kids. That’s still bad. > > The worst-case, meanwhile, if the German TV report is even close… is a lot worse. > > Meanwhile, there’s not a damn thing – I mean, not a single word I can find – about this yet in the U.S. media, but it’s starting to pick up speed on the rest of our tiny planet, so far showing up in Der Spiegel (roughly Germany’s equivalent to Time), an Australian ABC Radio report, and TV2 and NRK television in Norway, where the story might even lead to a change in Norway’s participation in the U.S.-led coalition. > > If you’re an American news reporter led here by a reader, but you need a hook that doesn’t place the incendiary charges in the lead (for whatever reason), OK, here’s your story on a platter: Bush may even lose another ally over this. Hit the Norwegian links, and you’ll find that the local Amnesty International has stated that **“Norway can not continue its military collaboration with the US in light of the alleged torture of children.”** Norway actually listens to its activists; you’ll find that the Prime Minister’s office says it plans to address the situation with the U.S. “in a very severe and direct way.” > > If this ain’t news, I don’t know what the hell is. > > I’ve Google-rigged an English version of the Der Spiegel article. This is a good place to get the gist of what the world is starting to read, even through the machine translation, which parses the headline as “US Soldiers Are To Have Abused Arrested Children.” > > This is gonna travel pretty fast. Let me look again… yup. New headlines have appeared just since I started writing this. > > **In Pakistan right this minute, they’re reading “Over 100 Children Abused in Custody in Iraq”.** > > Factual conflation aside – that’s not what the original report stated – it hurts like hell that it’s no longer a perceptual leap to assume the worst. **When I think of the outpouring of love for America post-9/11… it’s just stunning how far we have fallen. This is really what the world sees now.** > > Still, we need to know. My thanks to reader Thomas for the tip that started me on this. > > If you’d like to know more than a guy with bad German, worse Norwegian, and a laptop can find out in an hour, give the major newspapers and cable networks an email or a holler. I understand they have actual reporters and stuff. Any German translators out there? . I’m so ill right now. We are so fucked. Our children are fucked. Their children are fucked. I do feel responsible. There’s no one I can apologise to. There’s no way I could ever apologise enough. ---
**Author:** ![Brandus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@Brandus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brandus)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-tortured-kids-to-get-their-fathers-to-talk-god-have-mercy-on-our-souls/254592/2 "2004-07-11T18:58:12Z")
Do you hate freedom or something? Our soldiers are making america safer. ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-tortured-kids-to-get-their-fathers-to-talk-god-have-mercy-on-our-souls/254592/3 "2004-07-11T19:05:58Z")
> [@Brandus](#): > > Do you hate freedom or something? Our soldiers are making america safer. Are you kidding? Or are you a soulless bastard or something? ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-tortured-kids-to-get-their-fathers-to-talk-god-have-mercy-on-our-souls/254592/4 "2004-07-11T19:15:01Z")
> [@Mockingbird](#): > > Are you kidding? Or are you a soulless bastard or something? I can’t tell. He’s a newbie, & I don’t recall him. If, however, he _does_ mean it, he is a jerk. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-tortured-kids-to-get-their-fathers-to-talk-god-have-mercy-on-our-souls/254592/5 "2004-07-11T19:21:59Z")
The other tragedy, alluded to in the OP, is that the fifth estate in the United States has entirely given up its job to keep an eye on the government. The complete lack of criticism in the American media - outside of fat documentarians, I guess - is just baffling to me. ---
**Author:** ![kellner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c2a13f/32.png) [@kellner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kellner)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-tortured-kids-to-get-their-fathers-to-talk-god-have-mercy-on-our-souls/254592/6 "2004-07-11T19:25:06Z")
> [@Equipoise](#): > > Any German translators out there? If you have specific questions, yes. Interesting grammar aside, the linked automatic translation seems to get the basic facts right, but the video is a lot more detailed. I also saw the original report on TV. Btw. “Report Mainz” has a pretty good reputation as an investigative program. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-tortured-kids-to-get-their-fathers-to-talk-god-have-mercy-on-our-souls/254592/7 "2004-07-11T19:30:07Z")
Lets be clear here. What is the upper age limit for the term “children”. I have a 22 year old daughter who is still a child to me and yet is quite older than a lot of Americans who are putting their life on the line. God, war is a bitch! ---
**Author:** ![kellner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c2a13f/32.png) [@kellner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kellner)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-tortured-kids-to-get-their-fathers-to-talk-god-have-mercy-on-our-souls/254592/8 "2004-07-11T19:36:08Z")
> [@grienspace](#): > > Lets be clear here. What is the upper age limit for the term “children”. A specific case of one twelve-year-old girl is mentioned and they talk about other children “before the age of puberty”. Apart from this people 16 and older are apparently treated as adults anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-tortured-kids-to-get-their-fathers-to-talk-god-have-mercy-on-our-souls/254592/9 "2004-07-11T19:39:51Z")
What about [Floridiraq](http://www.courttv.com/trials/king/)? ---
**Author:** ![cmason32](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@cmason32](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmason32)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-tortured-kids-to-get-their-fathers-to-talk-god-have-mercy-on-our-souls/254592/10 "2004-07-11T19:47:56Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > What about [Floridiraq](http://www.courttv.com/trials/king/)? Oh, I get it. Because some kids killed their dad it justifies our torture of Iraqi children. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-tortured-kids-to-get-their-fathers-to-talk-god-have-mercy-on-our-souls/254592/11 "2004-07-11T19:48:49Z")
What most disturbs me about the torture story in general isn’t just that people were tortured, but rather that the methods used were those specifically invented to avoid leaving evidence of the torture. Stress positions, water boarding, exposure: all of these things can be as painful and psychologically devastating via pain as any other torture, yet they all share common traits: 1. they leave few or no marks or physical damage 2. they don’t “sound” all that bad to the uninformed public, even though they are just as horrifically painful as any other form of torture That these methods were used shows a LOT of forethought about how to not only torture people, but also to both conceal the fact from the public as well as make it seem like it wasn’t all that bad even if the public finds out. Worse, generally the only people who know about these methods are high ranking intelligence agents. Ordinary soldiers aren’t taught these things, and they aren’t the sorts of things that would simply occur to them. ---
**Author:** ![Denis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5e9695/32.png) [@Denis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Denis)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-tortured-kids-to-get-their-fathers-to-talk-god-have-mercy-on-our-souls/254592/12 "2004-07-11T19:57:37Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > What about Floridiraq? I fail to see the relevance of this to the Abu Grahib scandal. What about it? Do tell. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-tortured-kids-to-get-their-fathers-to-talk-god-have-mercy-on-our-souls/254592/13 "2004-07-11T19:58:04Z")
> [@cmason32](#): > > Oh, I get it. Because some kids killed their dad it justifies our torture of Iraqi children. How does your knee taste? No child anywhere should be held to account for any crime. He is incapable of giving or withholding meaningful consent and therefore incapable of committing a crime. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-tortured-kids-to-get-their-fathers-to-talk-god-have-mercy-on-our-souls/254592/14 "2004-07-11T19:59:51Z")
> [@Denis](#): > > I fail to see the relevance of this to the Abu Grahib scandal. What about it? Do tell. I am supporting the OP’s indignation. Is there not another liberal on this board? Someone who champions the rights of individuals, derived from liberty? Liberal. Liberty. Same same. ---
**Author:** ![cmason32](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@cmason32](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmason32)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-tortured-kids-to-get-their-fathers-to-talk-god-have-mercy-on-our-souls/254592/15 "2004-07-11T20:01:15Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > How does your knee taste? No child anywhere should be held to account for any crime. He is incapable of giving or withholding meaningful consent and therefore incapable of committing a crime. If you’re going to post unrelated news without providing any explantion as to why you are posting it then you’re going to have to expect people to draw their own conclusions about your intentions. Further, I don’t see how consent has anything to do with the OP. Perhaps you would like to explain this as well? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-tortured-kids-to-get-their-fathers-to-talk-god-have-mercy-on-our-souls/254592/16 "2004-07-11T20:07:22Z")
What is the deal? You intention is to deny me any benefit of the doubt whatsoever no matter how many times I have expressed exactly the indignation that I am expressing right now? Over the past five _years_? The point is that the exact same root of tyranny that accounts for what happened in Basra accounts for what happened in Pensacola. It is a far deeper issue than a few renegade thugs at Abu Ghraib. ---
**Author:** ![Denis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5e9695/32.png) [@Denis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Denis)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-tortured-kids-to-get-their-fathers-to-talk-god-have-mercy-on-our-souls/254592/17 "2004-07-11T20:12:08Z")
I think I understand your point. However (yeah, here it comes), I don’t think the two cases are comparable. In one case we have children being tortured to obtain a confession from fathers. Tortured by government sanctioned authority. In another, we have children driven to the breaking point by abuse at the hands of criminals. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-tortured-kids-to-get-their-fathers-to-talk-god-have-mercy-on-our-souls/254592/18 "2004-07-11T20:13:33Z")
What about [UranusIraq?](http://ringmaster.arc.nasa.gov/uranus/voyager/PIA00033.html) ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-tortured-kids-to-get-their-fathers-to-talk-god-have-mercy-on-our-souls/254592/19 "2004-07-11T20:18:15Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > What is the deal? You intention is to deny me any benefit of the doubt whatsoever no matter how many times I have expressed exactly the indignation that I am expressing right now? Over the past five _years_? The point is that the exact same root of tyranny that accounts for what happened in Basra accounts for what happened in Pensacola. It is a far deeper issue than a few renegade thugs at Abu Ghraib. The OP is about kids being tortured to make their parents talk, part of the whole ‘war on terror’ gig. while it is indeed true that the US has what can be considered to be an abysmal record wrt the imprisonment of children (joining the ranks of countries such as Iran and prewar Iraq in this regard), it was **not** the topic of the OP. While threads often flow and ebb like conversations, this is the equivalent of “yea, that’s bad but it’s related to this” and trying to twist the conversation around to a topic and bent that is your agenda, and IMHO, is not particularly polite. and since I just came from another thread (\*\*'luci’s \*\* thread on the prison scandal) in which you also seem to want to skew the conversation away from the topic posed by the OP, and into the area of “relative guilt via the political process” wrt the Iraqi prison, it seems to me to be a recent trend for you. reminds me of myself in grade school when I would attempt to stop the merry go round 'cause I enjoyed playing on it, but disliked going round and round 'cause it made me dizzy. The teacher was kind enough to pull me aside and gently remind me that everything didn’t have to go my way just 'cause I liked it better that way. If you wish to start a thread about how minors are treated in the US system, I’d be happy to pariticipate - however, I suggest that this thread is not the place for that. said as a poster who has absolutely no control over any other poster and is just registering my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![cmason32](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@cmason32](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmason32)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-tortured-kids-to-get-their-fathers-to-talk-god-have-mercy-on-our-souls/254592/20 "2004-07-11T20:19:47Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > What is the deal? You intention is to deny me any benefit of the doubt whatsoever no matter how many times I have expressed exactly the indignation that I am expressing right now? Over the past five _years_? The point is that the exact same root of tyranny that accounts for what happened in Basra accounts for what happened in Pensacola. It is a far deeper issue than a few renegade thugs at Abu Ghraib. Is this addressed to me? Perhaps other posters keep track of all your posts; I do not. Nor do I believe that we have ever engaged in a debate on these boards, so I have no particular reason to be familiar with your 5 year history - especially since I’ve been a member less than a year. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-tortured-kids-to-get-their-fathers-to-talk-god-have-mercy-on-our-souls/254592.md?page=2)