# We were sold for bounties say Gitmo prisoners.
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-were-sold-for-bounties-say-gitmo-prisoners/306294
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [June 1, 2005, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-were-sold-for-bounties-say-gitmo-prisoners/306294 "2005-06-01T00:23:02Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)
#### Post date: [June 1, 2005, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-were-sold-for-bounties-say-gitmo-prisoners/306294/21 "2005-06-01T12:56:48Z")
All the more reason for due process and transparency.
The current admin has lied, as have the Pakistanis et al.
But these guys can say anything and who knows if it’s true? There are no checks and balances in Gitmo or Abu Graib etc.
It has always been in our best interests to take the high road–too bad we have an admin who can’t see beyond their own noses/profits/crony-ism.
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### Author:  [@Futile\_Gesture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Futile_Gesture)
#### Post date: [June 1, 2005, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-were-sold-for-bounties-say-gitmo-prisoners/306294/22 "2005-06-01T13:58:51Z")
> [@Blackclaw](#):
>
> I’m not saying that they are lying, but anyone that is actually guilty of crimes has a reason to lie.
>
> All the more reason that we need a well defined legal process to deal with the prisoners in Gitmo.
Good point, nearly. We already have well defined legal processes to deal with them. It’s just that the US Administration are blatantly flouting them.
These people are, apparently, not criminals because the US has neither treated them as criminals using due legal process, nor charged them with any crimes.
And they’re not prisoners of war either, as they are not being treated as such.
So we can only conclude that they are illegally detained kidnapping _victims_. There are no other definitions, there is no other need for defining further legal processes.
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### Author:  [@Blackclaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackclaw)
#### Post date: [June 1, 2005, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-were-sold-for-bounties-say-gitmo-prisoners/306294/23 "2005-06-01T14:32:57Z")
> [@Futile Gesture](#):
>
> Good point, nearly. We already have well defined legal processes to deal with them. It’s just that the US Administration are blatantly flouting them.
>
> These people are, apparently, not criminals because the US has neither treated them as criminals using due legal process, nor charged them with any crimes.
>
> And they’re not prisoners of war either, as they are not being treated as such.
>
> So we can only conclude that they are illegally detained kidnapping _victims_. There are no other definitions, there is no other need for defining further legal processes.
I have no doubt that there are among the detainees at Gitmo some folks who should not be left free to walk the earth and slaughter at will. My complaint, and a complaint shared by many, is that there is no legal procedure being fairly applied to those detained there. The assumption being made is that those detained are guilty and there is no real legal recourse for the detainees to prove otherwise. The result is that it is quite likely that we have shepherds and farmers mixed in with terrorists.
Given the possibility that we have the innocent mixed in with the guilty, perhaps we don’t need to define further legal procedures as much as we need to apply some existing legal procedures with, as noted above, due process and transparency.
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### Author:  [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)
#### Post date: [June 1, 2005, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-were-sold-for-bounties-say-gitmo-prisoners/306294/24 "2005-06-01T15:54:11Z")
I remember reading early on in the invasion of Iraq that Americans learned it was customary to pay the families a settlement in the case of accidental deaths – very little money by U.S. standards – and that this coudl have defused much anger against the U.S.
I don’t know if this holds true in Afghanistan as well, but if it does, I could see various warlords in Afghanistan telling their men, “Go and pick up a couple of Abdullah’s cousins and give them to the Americans as Al-Qaeda fighters. They will give us a reward of $10,000 US each. Then I will give Abdullah $2,000 due to our misidentifying them as Al-Qaeda, and all will be all right with him, and we will be $8,000 ahead on the deal.”
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### Author:  [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)
#### Post date: [June 2, 2005, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-were-sold-for-bounties-say-gitmo-prisoners/306294/25 "2005-06-02T10:33:00Z")
> [@DMC](#):
>
> Nowhere in the article does the U.S claim that they have given reward money to any Pakistani, and in the article Pakistan denies accepting any money. Why would we want to pit Pakistan based on the information in the article?
When have denials ever stopped Reeder from pitting Bush? Thirteen paragraphs in the article are about claims by detainees that Pakistan sold them to the Americans. Reeder says, “Why would they lie?” Well, if they’re not lying, why isn’t he pitting the Pakistanis?
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### Author:  [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)
#### Post date: [June 2, 2005, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-were-sold-for-bounties-say-gitmo-prisoners/306294/26 "2005-06-02T10:52:08Z")
> [@Liberal](#):
>
> When have denials ever stopped Reeder from pitting Bush? Thirteen paragraphs in the article are about claims by detainees that Pakistan sold them to the Americans. Reeder says, “Why would they lie?” Well, if they’re not lying, why isn’t he pitting the Pakistanis?
Because if they aren’t lying, then the Bush administration is using horribly flawed methods to gather “terrorists” who are being held without any access to protections granted to them by law. They would be throwing away money in a process almost sure to create more terrorists then they are capturing.
That’s just my guess. There’s kryptonite around somewhere so my “super Reeder minder reeding” powers are useless.
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### Author:  [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)
#### Post date: [June 2, 2005, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-were-sold-for-bounties-say-gitmo-prisoners/306294/27 "2005-06-02T12:17:30Z")
> [@Liberal](#):
>
> When have denials ever stopped Reeder from pitting Bush?
If you’re going to bash Reeder even when he **does** have a valid OP (like he does here), then the problem isn’t Reeder.
> [@](#):
>
> Thirteen paragraphs in the article are about claims by detainees that Pakistan sold them to the Americans.
Actually, the article has all sorts of various claims, but mostly it’s about Arabs and/or Muslims being effectively sold to Americans. Some claim it was Pakistani intelligence, some claim it was tribesmen, some claim police, some were sold in Afghanistan, etc. The one consistent claim they are all making is that someone was paid to turn them in. That the payer is the one being pitted instead of the payee shouldn’t be all that surprising. I even explained that in my above response to you.
> [@](#):
>
> Reeder says, “Why would they lie?” Well, if they’re not lying, why isn’t he pitting the Pakistanis?
For the same reason I wouldn’t pit the poor people in my previous response to you. They’re not the root of the problem.
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### Author:  [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)
#### Post date: [June 3, 2005, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-were-sold-for-bounties-say-gitmo-prisoners/306294/28 "2005-06-03T03:52:18Z")
> [@iamthewalrus(:3=](#):
>
> How the fuck can you not have a problem with that? How do you rationalize away the fact that a _major_ civil right is being denied these people? How does anyone?
I rationalize in the way that I realize that the world is not a perfect place where justice is not always the way of the world. I feel for the prisioners, detainees, unjustifily imprisioned souls or however you want to desribe the incarcirated at Gitmo; but feel that they will overcome this injustic over time. At least they are not dead. ☹
They will live too tell thier stories over the next few decades and future administrations are going to have to deal with that. Right now, I think that detainment is the lesser of two options due to the nature of this “new” type of war. That could very easily prove wrong, but I think it is the option that the people in charge of our government is taking. I didn’t vote in favor of this administration, but believe that we have to at least respect there decisions until the next vote.
If you think it should be handeled differently, then vote differently next time.
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### Author:  [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)
#### Post date: [June 3, 2005, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-were-sold-for-bounties-say-gitmo-prisoners/306294/29 "2005-06-03T18:21:32Z")
> [@Liberal](#):
>
> I’m not sure who’s being pitted here, but from the linked article, it should be Pakistan. The US offered rewards for Taliban members. They were delivered people about whom the Pakistanis lied. The US interrogated the people to determine whether they were in fact who the Pakistanis said they were, and released the ones who weren’t. According to the article, the US was paying for specific named people. Since this is Reeder’s thread, I suppose it goes without saying that Bush is being pitted, but where is the evidence that the US intended to pay for random bodies?
Don’t you love how the board wingnuts translate “paid bounties” into “sold to?” Same people all the time. Pathetic.
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### Author:  [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)
#### Post date: [June 4, 2005, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-were-sold-for-bounties-say-gitmo-prisoners/306294/30 "2005-06-04T02:17:12Z")
> [@KidCharlemagne](#):
>
> Don’t you love how the board wingnuts translate “paid bounties” into “sold to?” Same people all the time. Pathetic.
[Still](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=6213370) [not](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=6186585) [contributing](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=5745799) [after](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=5718561) [all](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=5537897) [these](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=5450131) [years](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=5437678)?
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### Author:  [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)
#### Post date: [June 4, 2005, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-were-sold-for-bounties-say-gitmo-prisoners/306294/31 "2005-06-04T04:17:36Z")
> [@Si Amigo](#):
>
> At least they are not dead. ☹
Most of them, anyway.
Yet.
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### Author:  [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)
#### Post date: [June 5, 2005, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-were-sold-for-bounties-say-gitmo-prisoners/306294/32 "2005-06-05T20:20:02Z")
> [@Liberal](#):
>
> When have denials ever stopped Reeder from pitting Bush?
You know, this one bothered me enough that I think you owe Reeder a response to it, so I’ll address it again. Reeder **can** get overly exuberant in his disdain for Bush, but I’m not seeing it here in this thread. A wise poster once said:
> [@](#):
>
> Why the hell are people picking on Reeder in this thread? **What are you all on, auto pilot or something?**
Good words to live by, for all of us.
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### Author:  [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)
#### Post date: [June 5, 2005, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-were-sold-for-bounties-say-gitmo-prisoners/306294/33 "2005-06-05T20:55:55Z")
Quote:
Originally Posted by Si Amigo
At least they are not dead.
> [@jayjay](#):
>
> Most of them, anyway.
>
> Yet.
Most of who, the prisiners at Gitmo? That’s who we are talking about isn’t it? How many of them have died while in captivity there? Who are the most that you are talking about?
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### Author:  [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)
#### Post date: [June 5, 2005, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-were-sold-for-bounties-say-gitmo-prisoners/306294/34 "2005-06-05T20:59:24Z")
We don’t know. There is little or no chance that we ever really will.
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### Author:  [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)
#### Post date: [June 5, 2005, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-were-sold-for-bounties-say-gitmo-prisoners/306294/35 "2005-06-05T21:10:32Z")
> [@elucidator](#):
>
> We don’t know. There is little or no chance that we ever really will.
So they can’t cover up a desercation to the Quran but they can cover up actually killing people there? 😛 Come on, this is the US military we are talking about. :smack: They can’t even hide photos of naked prisinors from the press or pictures of Saddam in his underwear. :eek:
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### Author:  [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)
#### Post date: [June 5, 2005, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-were-sold-for-bounties-say-gitmo-prisoners/306294/36 "2005-06-05T22:24:37Z")
Time Magazine has a relevant article this week:
[What’s going on at Gitmo?](http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1066878-2,00.html)
> [@](#):
>
> there have been no reports or allegations of detainee deaths at Guantanamo. According to the Pentagon, prisoners there have attempted suicide 34 times and have committed several hundred acts classified by the military as “self-injurious manipulative behavior,” but none have died as a result. A Saudi man who tried to hang himself in 2003 ended up in a coma for several months but ultimately regained consciousness and learned to walk again.
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### Author:  [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)
#### Post date: [June 5, 2005, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-were-sold-for-bounties-say-gitmo-prisoners/306294/37 "2005-06-05T22:49:41Z")
> [@Reeder](#):
>
> More and more comes out. Do I believe them? Why would they lie?
Oh, I don’t know… Maybe because they are **THE ENEMY**?
Why in the world would you give the presumption of truth to the enemy over your own soldiers?
Did you know that al-Qaida specifically trains its people to lie about conditions of captivity? They are trying to win a propaganda war, you know.
Anything a detainee says should be viewed with suspicion. Investigated, sure. If the investigation turns up corroborating evidence, take action. But the question “Why would they lie?” is just horribly naive. It’s much, much worse than if I said, “George Bush says the war is going perfectly. Why would he lie?” I’m sure you’d react to a statement like that with guffaws.
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### Author:  [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)
#### Post date: [June 5, 2005, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-were-sold-for-bounties-say-gitmo-prisoners/306294/38 "2005-06-05T22:58:28Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#):
>
> Why in the world would you give the presumption of truth to the enemy over your own soldiers?
Yes, “innocent until proven guilty” is such a _quaint_ concept.
> [@Sam Stone](#):
>
> Did you know that al-Qaida specifically trains its people to lie about conditions of captivity?
So does the Bush Administration. That’s what makes the whole exercise difficult, that we have lying weasels on both sides of the table. Tell me again about those massive stockpiles of Iraqi WMD, Unca’ George…
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### Author:  [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)
#### Post date: [June 5, 2005, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-were-sold-for-bounties-say-gitmo-prisoners/306294/39 "2005-06-05T23:05:34Z")
[QUOTE=rjung]
Yes, “innocent until proven guilty” is such a _quaint_ concept.
QUOTE]
Yes, in a war it is a quaint concept. A naive concept A concept that can your troops killed.
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### Author:  [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)
#### Post date: [June 6, 2005, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/we-were-sold-for-bounties-say-gitmo-prisoners/306294/40 "2005-06-06T00:49:54Z")
> [@rjung](#):
>
> Yes, “innocent until proven guilty” is such a _quaint_ concept.
**A.** You’re talking about a legal principle applied to defendants in a criminal trial. This does not apply to what they say outside to courthouse. Or am I compelled to believe that OJ was innocent, just because he says so?
**B.** There’s a war on, and these people are trying to win it, you frickin’ moron. Before you uncritically accept their accusations because they fit in with what you want to believe about the Bush administration or the military, you might consider what your credulous swallowing of everything they say does to the war effort.
> [@](#):
>
> So does the Bush Administration. That’s what makes the whole exercise difficult, that we have lying weasels on both sides of the table. Tell me again about those massive stockpiles of Iraqi WMD, Unca’ George…
Yeah, the Bush administration and al-Qaida are exactly the same. :rolleyes:
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