Weapons ban lapsing causes no panic, except in fearmongers.

I think the statistics are sometimes misleading in that they give an impression that most of those household gun injuries are deliberate. I believe the majority of those injuries are accidental. I’ve known at least two people who have accidentally shot themselves in the foot.

Those statistics probably also include suicides, for which guns are a common method.

I think what the statistics are really saying is that if a gun is discharged in your home it is more probable than not that some other circumstance than an intruder will be involved.

You weren’t.

I know that accidental gun deaths are pretty low but I’ve never seen stats for accidental shootings that weren’t hunting related. I actually think most of the houshold firearm injuries are probably deliberate. Of the people I’ve known injured or killed by firearms there was only one accident, two suicides, and one murder (which didn’t take place at home).

Probably, but like most other statistics you have to take a look at them and see how applicable it is to you as an individual.

Marc

Sure I am. Every time someone says “you’re more likely to shoot a family member or someone you know then an intruder” they’re lumping me in with the domestic abusers, the criminals, the mentally ill, or the alcoholics and drug abusers. I’m sure they’re not doing it on purpose but there you go.

Marc

I would venture to guess that a lot of the accidental shootings involve minors that found an improperly stored firearm. There was a story not to long ago that made national news involving a young boy (5 or 6 years old) who found a relative’s pistol and took it to school and shot a playmate.

Scratch ‘playmate’ and insert ‘schoolmate’.
Thank you.

Whad do you want? “If you have a handgun in the house, you are statistically more likely to shoot a family member than an intruder…except Marc”?

I completely agree with the OP and wish the NRA and gun supporters hadn’t been fear mongering about the assault weapon ban.

The individual doesn’t need automatic weapons to defend their home or to hunt deer.

It also is not a slippery slope that will inevitably destroy the second amendment.

It isn’t an all or nothing proposition. Just because someone at one point didn’t get a UZI to protect their still from the Revenooers doesn’t mean my ability to get a .45 is next.

Well, as long as we have **mockingbird ** to decide what we do and don’t need, I guess we’re all safe. After all, mockingbird knows best and proves it by indoctrinating her students 5 days a week.

BTW, I’m wondering what laundry detergent is best. You know all, so you can answer anything, right?

I just don’t expect them to think that I’m impressed with their little statistic. There might be a wide variety of factors which change the odds of certain events happening.

Marc

The assault weapon ban had nothing to do with automatic weapons. At the time I don’t think it was unreasonable to think that further steps might be taken to curtail our rights. The mandatory 5 day waiting period was still recent, I believe it was around this time that I first heard of cities attempting to sue gun manufacturers, and there were “junk gun” bills in various states. On the other hand it was '95 or '96 that I started hearing about a lot of states starting to issue concealed carry permits.

Marc

The Assault Weapons Ban had nothing to do with automatic weapons.

Thank you for demonstrating why laws like the AWB work. You really had no idea, even though I said it earlier in the thread, that automatic weapons have been severely controlled since 1934. If you had you wouldn’t have made such a ridiculous statement.

First, a few questions for the pro-gun crowd:
(1) At what point would you draw the cutoff line between things people should be allowed to own and things they shouldn’t? Or would you draw no line? Does anyone here think that average citizens should be able to own, say, nuclear weapons? (And I ask that not as a strawman, because as long as you don’t support private ownership of nukes, there does have to be a cutoff point somewhere. Where? And what’s philosophically or legally or practically different about weapons on one side of it vs. weapons on the other side of it?)

(2) What’s your opinion about laws that would affect weapon ownership without ever disallownig it, in particular, registration laws, trigger lock laws, gun-safety-class-laws, background checks, waiting periods, restrictions on what can be sold at gun shows, etc.?
And a few general comments:
(1) I’m far from being a constitutional scholar, but the way I read the 2nd amendment, the first clause is basically irrelevant. If there was an amendment that read "Thomas Jefferson being a big booger head, it shall be illegal to name boys ‘Thomas’ ", the effect would be making naming boys ‘Thomas’ illegal. What the motivations were (TJ being a boogerhead) are irrelevant, and are merely commentary.

(2) What bothers me about the pro-gun side of this debate is that I feel they are so entrenched in their positions that they reflexively strike out at any and all anti-gun measures, without really feeling a need to justify that particular response. Now, I agree that the AWB ban seems pretty stupid, from all I’ve heard. But I think that (for instance) a waiting-period law is totally reasonable. But the response to it doesn’t seem to be so much “well, here are 5 logical reasons why a waiting-period law would be a bad idea” (and I can well believe that such logical reasons might exist). Rather, the response is “Slippery slope! Cold dead hands! People kill people! Why do you hate the constitution???”

(3) While we’re here, here’s my view of the topic as a whole: I think that people should be basically allowed to own almost anything up to things that are nearly WMDs. But I think that more and more potentially destructive things should require more and more regulation, safety equipment, etc. If you really want to own an M-16 for fun, for your collection, or for home defense, I have no problem with that. But as an M-16 is potentially FAR more destructive than a bread knife, I see no problem with licensing, registration, safety training, waiting periods, background checks, and so forth.

Oh, and one quick specific response:

First of all, no, you almost certainly can NOT do more damage with a compuer than you can with a gun, unless you have an incredibly specialized set of skills. If I had an M-16 and minimal knowledge of how to use it, I could be the next beltway sniper, kill a dozen people or so, cause massive panic, and cost millions of dollars in law enforcement costs. If I have a computer and minimal knowledge of how to use it, I can fill it extremely full of spyware and destry my credit rating.

It’s hard to think of many things other than guns that so drastically increase the potential body count that someone could achieve without much effort. (One other thing that definitely qualifies is a car… in fact, I’m a bit surprised that we’ve so rarely seen insane or evil people go on a running-into-people rampage in a vehicle. But cars CLEARLY serve a necessary social function, and are heavily regulated in a number of different ways.)
If there were a device that could be purchased which had some legitimate uses but which also, if misused in a simple fashion, would wipe out the hard drives of all computers within a 2 mile radius, I would have no problem whatsoever with restricting the sale and ownership of that device.

Serious questions.

  1. Are semi-automatic weapons as tightly controlled?

  2. Can semi-automatic weapons be modified to fully automatic by an end-user?

If you show him yours…

A: No, they are not. A Colt .45 is a semi-automatic pistol. As are most pistols that are not revolvers. Which means several million pistols. Huge amounts of which were, somehow, allowed for the public to own after WWII.

B: Yes, it is possible to modify a semi-automatic pistol to fire its entire clip in one burst. Admittedly, this is not good for the pistol, nor is it really all that good for hitting anything with it. There are reasons the M-16 is limited to a three round burst.

C: The difference between a modified pistol and an automatic weapon is the ability to fire controlled bursts. This is… fairly significant.

D: The only time I have heard of a modified pistol being of any use was in the filming of Judge Dredd, where the pistol used was broken in said manner to fire a dramatic burst.

Snarkitude aside…

I have considerable sympathy for the anti-gun position, with some personal reservations. As a recovering Texan, I was raised to admire and appreciate weaponry, and still do. I would very much like to try out that .50 caliber weapon so much in vogue, but only to take out a beer can at a range of 600 yards, because that would be cool. Similarly, if you want to take a .22 out to the creek and plink a few cans, I’m your guy.

As well, there’s the fact that it is far, far too late. Guns are everywhere, and they are advertised as instruments of power and control, its not about penii, its about fear. And the correct response to fear is courage, not the capacity for deadly force. But the simple fact remains: even if we could cease the manufacture and import of handguns tomorrow, it would be decades before the ones we already have amongst us rust out and rot.

Down home in Waco (…quiet little town, you never heard of it, nothing ever happens there…) gunplay was entirely unremarkable. Somebody was always shooting somebody, usually over nothing much, the kind of argument that ought not to result in anything more drastic than a broken nose ends with a corpse.

Our culture of violence is stupid and destructive, it promotes the same fear it pretends to cure. It is obscene and perverted beyond revulsion into blasphemy. We see someone punch a hole in another person, we yawn and reach for the popcorn. We see some middle aged black womans titty and we go berserk. Instuments of death are vile, instruments of sex are merely impolite.

People who creep houses to steal are seldom armed. I would not kill a man to protect my money, any more than I would kill to take his. I can get more money, a soul stained by blood is a permanent fact, the damned spot does not come out.

But we might as well forget legislation, those who will cling to deadly force embrace their fear with unbreakable fervor, they have the courage to hurt, but not the courage to trust, the courage to inflict suffering, but not the courage to risk suffering.

What Would Ghandi Pack?

Let’s not forget E): It is a federal felony (and has been since 1934) to modify a semi-automatic firearm—handgun, shotgun or long gun—to fire sustained bursts.

I’d wager the vast majority of responsible gun owners feel exactly the same. I know I do. And yet, I have a CCW license. Go figure.

I simply do not understand this misapprehension of most of the vehement the anti-gun rights: that anyone who owns a firearm is ready-and-willing to gun down some poor bastard, and that anyone with a gun in the home is a tragedy-in-waiting.

But if I listen to the rhetoric from some of the otherwise sensible persons in this thread, that’s exactly what I hear them saying they’d do if they had their druthers. Since many people over the years—some of them actual legislators at the national level—who have also advocated such mesaures, we’d be foolish to not maintain vigilence for those who would infringe our rights. All, or nothing proposition? Mebbe, mebbe not. If all I own and collect is .45ACP handguns, then a ban on .45ACP hadguns is certainly an “all” proposition.

Finally, those of you who’re laboring under the assumption that a gun in the home is far more likely to be used against a family member (or someone otherwise known to the gun owner) are getting this idea from a widely published study done by Arthur Kellerman published in the New England Journal of Medicine in 1986. It’s a horribly flawed study and the conclusions that have come from it are simply not supported by the statistics contained therein.

Yep, that’s why we were able to pave Vietnam and put parking stripes over it by Christmas (1968)…