# Weapons experts. Re video Dallas Police shoot mentally ill man standing still. What happened? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 18, 2013, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weapons-experts-re-video-dallas-police-shoot-mentally-ill-man-standing-still-what-happened/671535 "2013-10-18T01:05:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![toofs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4491bb/32.png) [@toofs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toofs)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2013, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weapons-experts-re-video-dallas-police-shoot-mentally-ill-man-standing-still-what-happened/671535/61 "2013-10-21T05:44:17Z")
So, they arrive on scene to a call of a mentally disturbed, agitated man with a knife standing in the street. Getting out of the car, they have a clear unobstructed view of the person described in the initiating call. Together the police officers approach the man with the knife. Knowing the extreme potential danger a human with a knife possesses, and knowing from their training and lessons learned from other police encounters with knife armed suspects to stay outside of 20 feet, the officers rightfully draw their sidearms. Then they walk closer to the man with the knife. They walk towards the man, realize they are inside the danger zone, and use deadly force. Then they file a fraudulent incident report. I will be genuinely surprised if either of these officers are fired. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2013, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weapons-experts-re-video-dallas-police-shoot-mentally-ill-man-standing-still-what-happened/671535/62 "2013-10-21T06:28:24Z")
Over the past. oh, 30-40 years, we have seen a militarization of our police force. This has not been a good thing or a necessary thing. I’ve told this story before but I’ll relate it again. I was watching ADAM-12 on hulu. If you don’t know that is a “cop” tv series from the late sixties. The producer was Jack Webb, famous for producing Dragnet. The guy loved the police and love to tell REAL stories. All the stories for Dragnet and ADAM-12 came from real police cases. Now one, they introduced the idea of S.W.A.T. teams with a sniper on a roof. The sniper had killed several people, wounded others. Of course Malloy and Reed join the SWAT guy and get on the roof and they capture the shooter. The take him alive. At the end a reporter is repeated questioning Reed, asking why they didn’t kill the guy. Reed’s response? “It wasn’t necessary.” Or police are acting tougher but they are actually more terrified of their own job than ever before. Someone is holding a knife? Shoot him. Someone is reaching in his pocket for something? Shoot him. Shoot first and lie in your report later. We’ll cover for you. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2013, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weapons-experts-re-video-dallas-police-shoot-mentally-ill-man-standing-still-what-happened/671535/63 "2013-10-21T06:35:33Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > They were the ones who were closing the distance. I don’t understand that, and I’m not sure why it was felt that was critical to do under the circumstances. There’s kind of a weird mindset in training procedures. Basically if you don’t do what they tell you to do they are empowered to ramp it up to Defcon 10. doesn’t seem to matter if you’re holding a stuffed animal or nuclear bomb. ---
**Author:** ![knel3030](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecae2f/32.png) [@knel3030](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/knel3030)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2013, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weapons-experts-re-video-dallas-police-shoot-mentally-ill-man-standing-still-what-happened/671535/64 "2013-10-21T07:28:55Z")
I won’t be surprised when they start using the Terrorist explanation, deprive the victim of citizen status and classify them as “enemy combatants”. The precedent is already set. ---
**Author:** ![palacheck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a88e57/32.png) [@palacheck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/palacheck)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2013, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weapons-experts-re-video-dallas-police-shoot-mentally-ill-man-standing-still-what-happened/671535/65 "2013-10-21T09:03:10Z")
I suppose one of the fortunate things about the decreasing costs of video equipment is that stuff like this is caught on camera much more often. It’s getting to where a crooked small town sheriff can’t just bury his problems in the woods any more… ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2013, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weapons-experts-re-video-dallas-police-shoot-mentally-ill-man-standing-still-what-happened/671535/66 "2013-10-21T11:07:23Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > They were the ones who were closing the distance. I don’t understand that, and I’m not sure why it was felt that was critical to do under the circumstances. It’s their job to control the situation. They could have stayed by the car and shouted instructions from a safe position behind an open car door. However, if the guy decided to turn and run into the house to kill his mother, they’re not in a position to stop him. Unless they shoot him, a running target, from 30+ feet away. Now, I’m not a fan of a cop jumping in front of a moving car and shooting the driver because he’s now “in danger”. However, they can’t simply lay back and see how things play out, either. In this case, I don’t think the shooting was appropriate, the officers did not seem to have non-lethal weapons at their disposal, so they should not have tried to bring this to conclusion without that option. ---
**Author:** ![smee\_goan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f07891/32.png) [@smee\_goan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smee_goan)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2013, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weapons-experts-re-video-dallas-police-shoot-mentally-ill-man-standing-still-what-happened/671535/67 "2013-10-21T14:44:41Z")
Too bad they didn’t shoot the poor slob’s mother. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2013, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weapons-experts-re-video-dallas-police-shoot-mentally-ill-man-standing-still-what-happened/671535/68 "2013-10-21T19:12:06Z")
> [@smee\_goan](#): > > Too bad they didn’t shoot the poor slob’s mother. WTF??? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2013, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weapons-experts-re-video-dallas-police-shoot-mentally-ill-man-standing-still-what-happened/671535/69 "2013-10-21T20:15:20Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > There’s kind of a weird mindset in training procedures. Basically if you don’t do what they tell you to do they are empowered to ramp it up to Defcon 10. **doesn’t seem to matter if you’re holding a stuffed animal or nuclear bomb**. from a distance - how are you supposed to know the difference? a stuffed animal could conceal a knife or a gun (probably not a nuklar weapon, granted) - if you are dealing with a ‘crazed’ individual - you do not take chances. ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2013, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weapons-experts-re-video-dallas-police-shoot-mentally-ill-man-standing-still-what-happened/671535/70 "2013-10-21T20:33:25Z")
> [@smee\_goan](#): > > Too bad they didn’t shoot the poor slob’s mother. I have given you a warning for trolling for this post. **twickster** , MPSIMS moderator ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2013, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weapons-experts-re-video-dallas-police-shoot-mentally-ill-man-standing-still-what-happened/671535/71 "2013-10-21T23:24:47Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > It’s their job to control the situation. They could have stayed by the car and shouted instructions from a safe position behind an open car door. However, if the guy decided to turn and run into the house to kill his mother, they’re not in a position to stop him. Unless they shoot him, a running target, from 30+ feet away. And those are the only two options available? You either rush forward or stay waaaay the hell back? I don’t think so. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weapons-experts-re-video-dallas-police-shoot-mentally-ill-man-standing-still-what-happened/671535/72 "2013-10-22T02:30:25Z")
> [@simster](#): > > from a distance - how are you supposed to know the difference? a stuffed animal could conceal a knife or a gun (probably not a nuklar weapon, granted) - if you are dealing with a ‘crazed’ individual - you do not take chances. why even call the police. Just shoot everybody seen with a knife and save taxpayers the cost. Which is pretty much what the police did. A person with a knife isn’t automatically a crazed individual. Factors such as behavior have to be taken into effect. Otherwise we have the opening to robocop where a machine just gun’s down anybody that doesn’t comply. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weapons-experts-re-video-dallas-police-shoot-mentally-ill-man-standing-still-what-happened/671535/73 "2013-10-22T03:11:09Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > why even call the police. Just shoot everybody seen with a knife and save taxpayers the cost. Which is pretty much what the police did. > > A person with a knife isn’t automatically a crazed individual. Factors such as behavior have to be taken into effect. Otherwise we have the opening to robocop where a machine just gun’s down anybody that doesn’t comply. I was only answering the question itself - not invoking the hysteria - cops are not ‘telepaths’ - ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weapons-experts-re-video-dallas-police-shoot-mentally-ill-man-standing-still-what-happened/671535/74 "2013-10-22T04:31:52Z")
> [@simster](#): > > I was only answering the question itself - not invoking the hysteria - cops are not ‘telepaths’ - yes and my point was they are not automatons. They are suppose to assess the situation and not shoot everything in sight. the person in question was not advancing on them or anybody else. Thus, he wasn’t a danger to them or anybody else. I don’t think they did a very good job in this instance. There was no apparent attempt to diffuse the situation. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weapons-experts-re-video-dallas-police-shoot-mentally-ill-man-standing-still-what-happened/671535/75 "2013-10-22T04:54:29Z")
It sure looks like cold-blooded murder to me. Wait, they were cops? That’s different. They were just defending themselves. From a guy standing still 20 feet away with only a knife. We can’t have that! Shoot the fucker! ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weapons-experts-re-video-dallas-police-shoot-mentally-ill-man-standing-still-what-happened/671535/76 "2013-10-22T04:56:27Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > yes and my point was they are not automatons. They are suppose to assess the situation and not shoot everything in sight. the person in question was not advancing on them or anybody else. Thus, he wasn’t a danger to them or anybody else. I don’t think they did a very good job in this instance. There was no apparent attempt to diffuse the situation. Now that I’ve watched the video - based on that alone - I would agree with you. A couple of things ‘about’ the video that strike me as ‘plausible’ reasons the cops reacted the way they did - a) when they first approached - the person gets out of his chair a bit agressively b) we cannot see the persons left arm - it is impossible to tell from that video if he ‘twitched’ his hand or if it was holding a knife, etc - Things against the cops a) it looks to me that they came out ‘guns drawn’ - I don’t know if thats standard procedure here - but it certainly seemed overly aggressive on their side - probably led to the reaction by the person in the chair. b) they absolutley lied - or possible oversold - maybe even just plain ‘bad witness’ what was stated in the police report - there certainly was no ‘attacking movement’ as recorded in the video - doesn’t mean they didn’t interpet one and then in writing the report ‘oversold’ it - it certainly does not match the video. IMHO - there were better ways to handle this without a doubt - but since I wasn’t there - I am not in a position to ‘hang the cops’ based on this one video - I hope a full review and investigation is able to add clarity to it. If the person was, in fact, holding a knife and then made any movement (no matter how seemingly slight) toward the cops or himself with it - I don’t see the cops as having acted improperly in that instance - but I also think in this instance the cops adrenaline may have kicked in and they over-reacted. Its very hard to tell from the video. ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weapons-experts-re-video-dallas-police-shoot-mentally-ill-man-standing-still-what-happened/671535/77 "2013-10-22T06:32:33Z")
Do all video’s from police cars get looked at if they made any stops, or only when their is a fight or chase or shots fired? Are they ever called down for kicking handcuffed people on the ground. Doing knee drops on them etc.??? How quickly on a daily basis are they cleared? Can the officers shut them off? If they do, what is ever said about it? Most of this stuff we see on this board is from big cities. Want to JUSTICE? Go to the small towns. ( 3000 to 10,000 or so. ) The city police and what they do on a daily basis., No camera, no recourse, no oversight at all. All you can do is endure & hope they don’t kill you or ruin your life. ---
**Author:** ![toofs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4491bb/32.png) [@toofs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toofs)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2013, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weapons-experts-re-video-dallas-police-shoot-mentally-ill-man-standing-still-what-happened/671535/78 "2013-10-23T01:26:16Z")
> [@GusNSpot](#): > > Do all video’s from police cars get looked at if they made any stops, or only when their is a fight or chase or shots fired? Are they ever called down for kicking handcuffed people on the ground. Doing knee drops on them etc.??? How quickly on a daily basis are they cleared? Can the officers shut them off? If they do, what is ever said about it? The videos are sometimes [del]erased[/del] unfortunate casualties of recording device failure. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2013, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weapons-experts-re-video-dallas-police-shoot-mentally-ill-man-standing-still-what-happened/671535/79 "2013-10-23T01:37:22Z")
> [@toofs](#): > > The videos are sometimes [del]erased[/del] unfortunate casualties of recording device failure. I know there is probably no way you’ll believe me but with our system that is literally impossible. We have no control over the system and no way of erasing anything. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2013, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weapons-experts-re-video-dallas-police-shoot-mentally-ill-man-standing-still-what-happened/671535/80 "2013-10-23T03:58:56Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > I know there is probably no way you’ll believe me but with our system that is literally impossible. We have no control over the system and no way of erasing anything. I think this is good for everybody concerned. It protects officers from false accusations and it keeps them honest. I’ve met some damn fine officers that exhibit common sense, humanity and humility. And I’ve met some that should have been weeded out with basic psychological screening. There might be something missed in the video but IMO we’ve gravitated toward police shooting people in instances that were formerly dealt with in a less lethal manner. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weapons-experts-re-video-dallas-police-shoot-mentally-ill-man-standing-still-what-happened/671535.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weapons-experts-re-video-dallas-police-shoot-mentally-ill-man-standing-still-what-happened/671535.md?page=5)