# Weapons inspections: guilty, damn guilty, or conflict du jur? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 3, 2003, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weapons-inspections-guilty-damn-guilty-or-conflict-du-jur/152607 "2003-02-03T23:03:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2003, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weapons-inspections-guilty-damn-guilty-or-conflict-du-jur/152607/21 "2003-02-04T17:39:43Z")
Since the cease fire that ended the Gulf War, Iraq could have cooperated at any time and gotten the economic sanctions removed. As I’ve said before, Saddam could come to Washington, stay in the Lincoln Bedroom, and pose for photo ops. with George I, II, and the whole family. Saddam: “Sorry about the whole ‘assasination’ thing, Mr. Bush.” Why doesn’t he call our bluff and _truly_ cooperate? What about the scientists, why the secrecy _if there is no weapons program of significance?_ ---
**Author:** ![Waverly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/57b2e6/32.png) [@Waverly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waverly)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2003, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weapons-inspections-guilty-damn-guilty-or-conflict-du-jur/152607/22 "2003-02-04T17:48:37Z")
Methinks Blix speaks with forked tongue. In other words, I can’t reconcile the two quotes. Mine, I believe, took place on 1/27. It is, however, up to the UN to get a credible account from him and decide what to do next. I can’t believe that informed decisions can only be made by Americans. It’s like a surreal Twelve Angry Men where a single juror leaves the others behind in their deliberations, dashes into the courtroom, and kills the defendant. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2003, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weapons-inspections-guilty-damn-guilty-or-conflict-du-jur/152607/23 "2003-02-04T19:06:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Waverly \* > \*\*Oh, and the 4 members I was thinking of were Texas, the USA, England, and Israel. You learn something new every day. \*\* You are aware that Texas isn’t a country, right? ---
**Author:** ![Waverly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/57b2e6/32.png) [@Waverly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waverly)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2003, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weapons-inspections-guilty-damn-guilty-or-conflict-du-jur/152607/24 "2003-02-04T19:19:52Z")
For the love of god. Of course Texas is a country. What do _you_ think it is, some mythical land beyond the pillars of Hercules? The capital is Texarkana, if I remember correctly. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2003, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weapons-inspections-guilty-damn-guilty-or-conflict-du-jur/152607/25 "2003-02-04T19:52:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rhum Runner \* > **The _last_ set of inspectors were kicked out by Iraq** Has that somehow become true in the time since the inspectors [withdrew of their own accord](http://www.google.com/search?as_q=1998&num=10&hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&btnG=Google+Search&as_epq=inspectors+withdrew&as_oq=&as_eq=&lr=&as_ft=i&as_filetype=&as_qdr=all&as_occt=any&as_dt=i&as_sitesearch=&safe=off) back in 1998, or are you just trying to pull a fast one ? ---
**Author:** ![Rhum\_Runner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rhum\_Runner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhum_Runner)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2003, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weapons-inspections-guilty-damn-guilty-or-conflict-du-jur/152607/26 "2003-02-04T20:56:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Squink \* > \*\*Has that somehow become true in the time since the inspectors [withdrew of their own accord](http://www.google.com/search?as_q=1998&num=10&hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&btnG=Google+Search&as_epq=inspectors+withdrew&as_oq=&as_eq=&lr=&as_ft=i&as_filetype=&as_qdr=all&as_occt=any&as_dt=i&as_sitesearch=&safe=off) back in 1998, or are you just trying to pull a fast one ? \*\* I stand corrected, and amend my statement to say that the inspectors were constructively evicted. > [@](#): > > the inspectors found themselves embroiled in frequent disputes with the Iraqi government, which restricted the inspectors’ ability to travel and visit certain sites. Finally, in 1998, the inspectors withdrew, declaring that Iraq’s defiance made it unable to carry out their work. The United States and Britain subsequently launched four days of air strikes against Iraq. [cite](http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A4106-2002Nov18?language=printer) ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weapons-inspections-guilty-damn-guilty-or-conflict-du-jur/152607/27 "2003-02-05T00:53:19Z")
You’re onto a loser on that one, **Rhum Runner**. Clinton withdrew the Inspectors and then ordered four days of bombing immediately before his Impeachment hearing was due to begin – as is the way with politics, the two events were in no way related. No sir, not at all. On cooperation while they were still in Iraq, the since proven fact that – as Saddam claimed – the whole UNSCOM mission was a cover for both US and Israeli spies rather tainted their credibility. Unfortunately for Clinton, Saddam still didn’t throw ‘em out … so in the end, he withdrew them and managed to distract (a little) from his impeachment hearing by ordering the bombardment (which may have killed up to 60 Iraqi civilians). Interestingly, the US military claimed to have destroyed piles of Saddam’s bio’s and chem’s - the very stuff they now claim Saddam is hiding … funny old world. - been through it all several times in GD if you’re interested. [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/from\_our\_own\_correspondent/238930.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/from_our_own_correspondent/238930.stm) [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/events/crisis\_in\_the\_gulf/latest\_news/238847.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/events/crisis_in_the_gulf/latest_news/238847.stm) ---
**Author:** ![Rhum\_Runner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rhum\_Runner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhum_Runner)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weapons-inspections-guilty-damn-guilty-or-conflict-du-jur/152607/28 "2003-02-05T01:02:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by London\_Calling \* > \*\*You’re onto a loser on that one, **Rhum Runner**. That might be, but I’m not going down without a fight, damn it! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weapons-inspections-guilty-damn-guilty-or-conflict-du-jur/152607/29 "2003-02-05T03:15:38Z")
If I can go back to the OP just of a second… > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Waverly \* > \*\*It’s about as close as you can come to treating audits and inspections as a science. One of the first things you learn is that the _goal_ is really to verify compliance. It may not be possible, but the idea is that the site gets the benefit of the doubt until they show they don’t deserve it. So why, may I ask you, is the US already talking about what terrible penalties are in store for Iraq even before the inspection is complete? > > I was taught that if we find a non-compliance, it was up to us to build support for it with objective evidence. So why, may I ask, do Albright and others claim, “the burden of proof is on Iraq”? The whole ‘guilty until I decide you aren’t innocent’ concept is, well, un-American. \*\* IANAISOA (ISO auditor), but I have been through the audit process for both 9000 and 14000. I finished a 14000 pre-audit week before last. I disagree with the statement about benefit of doubt and building a case. In my 14000 audit (enviromental probably closer to what is going on Iraq than 9000) The auditor picked some chemicals from the storage cabinet and asked for the Material Data Safety Sheet. If I could not produce the MDSS I got written up. The burden of proof is on me. That is guilty until I prove otherwise. So as far as I am concerned what is going on in Iraq is not unlike an ISO audit, except the inspectors in Iraq are probably easier than ISO auditors. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Waverly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/57b2e6/32.png) [@Waverly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waverly)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weapons-inspections-guilty-damn-guilty-or-conflict-du-jur/152607/30 "2003-02-05T10:57:46Z")
Rick, 14000, and probably state law, require you to have an MSDS. The auditor didn’t come in and say, “OK, I’ve written you up for a violation, now prove it doesn’t exit.” He found chemicals, then gave you a chance to show you were in compliance. ---
**Author:** ![d\_redguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5fc32e/32.png) [@d\_redguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/d_redguy)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weapons-inspections-guilty-damn-guilty-or-conflict-du-jur/152607/31 "2003-02-05T11:40:55Z")
Actually, **Waverly** the violation is implied if **Rick** doesn’t provide the data sheets. What Iraq is doing now is like **Rick** saying,“Oh, I have the data sheets, but you can’t see them. But I have them. They are over there. In that locked cabinet. What? No, you can’t go in there.” ---
**Author:** ![Waverly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/57b2e6/32.png) [@Waverly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waverly)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weapons-inspections-guilty-damn-guilty-or-conflict-du-jur/152607/32 "2003-02-05T13:34:12Z")
As I said, redguy, the observation of the chemicals came first, and Rick had a chance to produce the MSDS before it is logged as a violation. In fact, if I were doing the audit, I’d give him an hour or two if he didn’t have them immediately available. If he were conscientious, he would have no trouble getting a hold of them, and I would close the matter with nothing but a firm recommendation that they take a close look at all their chemicals. This isn’t guilty until proven innocent; it is following a chain of evidence. And redguy, do you have a cite detailing circumstances where weapons inspectors were told that something existed yet they would not be allowed to look at it? My understanding of any criticism is that the Iraqis would produce anything that was specifically asked for, but it was their tendency to wait until asked that was at issue. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weapons-inspections-guilty-damn-guilty-or-conflict-du-jur/152607.md?page=1)