# Weather Bulletin from Montana and North Dakota **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 14, 2005, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weather-bulletin-from-montana-and-north-dakota/326170 "2005-10-14T03:40:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![uglybeech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/82dd89/32.png) [@uglybeech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/uglybeech)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2005, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weather-bulletin-from-montana-and-north-dakota/326170/41 "2005-10-16T01:39:59Z")
> [@](#): > > So states that receive less can “bitch” more than states that receive more? Or states that receive more can’t bitch at all? What’s your point? OK, I’ll dumb this down even mroe. You can bitch all you want, but when your bitching consists of saying that your state somehow knows how to fend for itself and another doesn’t, and it turns out that your own state is fiscally sucking the country dry, then your argument is so much crap. > [@](#): > > And could you offer a cite for your $ figures? Here’s some cites. [1](http://www.nemw.org/taxburd.htm), [2](http://www.taxfoundation.org/research/show/266.html) > [@](#): > > Where did I talk about “models of forethought leading to financial independence”? Well it was hard to find a coherent point to your ranting, but that’s the best I could make out. That you were pointing to Montana and N.D. as models of forethought which allowed them to not have to lean on the federal government’s benificence. > [@](#): > > Care to re-write these two sentences? Because you just said that I was stupid for complaining as a private citizen of the U.S. Or something like that. Reading is fundamental. I said the other aspects of your argument were also stupid, but stupidest of all was touting the superiority of those two states in particular. You would be less stupid if you just kept quiet about the rugged independence of Montana and N.D. > [@](#): > > Knowing how to fend for yourself is laughable because? What’s stupid is that the two states you think can fend for themselves, obviously are worse at it than almost everyone else. ---
**Author:** ![whistlepig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/73ab20/32.png) [@whistlepig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whistlepig)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2005, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weather-bulletin-from-montana-and-north-dakota/326170/42 "2005-10-16T02:17:38Z")
> [@uglybeech](#): > > OK, I’ll dumb this down even mroe. You can bitch all you want, but when your bitching consists of saying that your state somehow knows how to fend for itself and another doesn’t, and it turns out that your own state is fiscally sucking the country dry, then your argument is so much crap. > Here’s some cites. [1](http://www.nemw.org/taxburd.htm), [2](http://www.taxfoundation.org/research/show/266.html) Well it was hard to find a coherent point to your ranting, but that’s the best I could make out. That you were pointing to Montana and N.D. as models of forethought which allowed them to not have to lean on the federal government’s benificence.Reading is fundamental. I said the other aspects of your argument were also stupid, but stupidest of all was touting the superiority of those two states in particular. You would be less stupid if you just kept quiet about the rugged independence of Montana and N.D.What’s stupid is that the two states you think can fend for themselves, obviously are worse at it than almost everyone else. Actually, your first cite show that the, “Per Capita Tax Burden and Return on Federal Tax Dollar: Fiscal 2003” for Louisiana is 1.43. And Montana’s is 1.52. So you are basing your claim that Montana is, “fiscally sucking the country dry” on the .09% difference between Montana and Louisiana in "fiscal return on federal tax dollar? Quote: Where did I talk about “models of forethought leading to financial independence”? Well it was hard to find a coherent point to your ranting, but that’s the best I could make out. That you were pointing to Montana and N.D. as models of forethought which allowed them to not have to lean on the federal government’s benificence. Nice reach. Quote: Care to re-write these two sentences? Because you just said that I was stupid for complaining as a private citizen of the U.S. Or something like that. Reading is fundamental. I said the other aspects of your argument were also stupid, but stupidest of all was touting the superiority of those two states in particular. You would be less stupid if you just kept quiet about the rugged independence of Montana and N.D. Answering the question asked above about your original “private citizen” statement is also fundamental. Saying, “other aspects of your argument are also stupid” is not a response, it’s an evasion of the need to justify earlier accusations. Quote: Knowing how to fend for yourself is laughable because? What’s stupid is that the two states you think can fend for themselves, obviously are worse at it than almost everyone else. Again, if you respond to a question by giving a non-anwer to the question, it isn’t an answer. Particularly when your previous citations don’t support your answer. I’ll reply to you again when you learn the difference between 1. argueing a point and 2. changing the arguement without responding to the previous point whistlepig ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2005, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weather-bulletin-from-montana-and-north-dakota/326170/43 "2005-10-16T03:10:09Z")
> [@Mac Guffin](#): > > I would like to ask that not all of North Dakota be included in the OP diatribe. Here in Fargo, it has only dropped below freezing once so far this season, and we have yet to see any snow. And where I live in Montana, we’ve only gotten light snow once so far this season. I was surprised to hear about how some regions of the state were hit by a blizzard, and it was only a rather small portion of the whole state. There were vast, varied regions of Montana _not_ snowed on in that time and even regions where it didn’t get cold. It has been in the 60s here and it’s going to be in the high 70s over the next few days. It won’t even get down to freezing at night like it has been. It will probably get down to -40 sometime this winter, and we will get snowed on to the point where travel on the backroads is inadvisable unless you have AWD and a lot of experience. But none of that has happened yet, and it is laughable to see people making such a huge deal over something that really didn’t affect very many of us at all. ---
**Author:** ![suezeekay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/839c29/32.png) [@suezeekay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suezeekay)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2005, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weather-bulletin-from-montana-and-north-dakota/326170/44 "2005-10-16T04:27:05Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > Fuck! I just _knew_ there was something that didn’t feel right about the world when I got up this morning! :eek: 😛 > > Take heart, **whistlepig**. Everytime the temp hits -30 I have to post a rant. Then I wait about 18 hours to adjust, and then become really, really smug. Why? Wait for January when the morning news shows are reporting on how the Northeast has effectively become paralyzed because the temps are BELOW FREEZING!!! > > Those are the mornings I gladly start the car, unplug it, and scoff at those in the NE that try to portray themselves as the toughest bad-asses in the world. Pussies. 😃 I live in Downeast Maine, and believe me, when it’s just below freezing in the winter I think it’s warm weather. Honestly, it is never that warm from the end of December to the end of February, even part of March. Plenty of times the temperatures have gotten -30 and two years ago it was -50 (with the wind chill). That’s when I came home and the pipe to the radiator had burst (frozen). When I get out of my car in January and February the hairs in my nose freeze and it’s hard to breathe the air is so cold. But, I love it. ---
**Author:** ![suezeekay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/839c29/32.png) [@suezeekay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suezeekay)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2005, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weather-bulletin-from-montana-and-north-dakota/326170/45 "2005-10-16T04:37:28Z")
> [@whistlepig](#): > > Up here in the Northern Plains we just recovered from a “Weather Event” of “Biblical Proportions” with an historic blizzard of up to 24" inches of snow and winds to 50 MPH that broke trees in half, stranded hundreds of motorist in lethal snow banks, > closed all roads, isolated scores of communities and cut power to tens of thousands. > > George Bush did not come…FEMA staged nothing…no one howled for the government…no one uttered an expletive on TV…nobody demanded $2,000 debit cards…no one asked for a FEMA Trailer House…no news anchors moved in. > > We just melted snow for water, sent out caravans to pluck people out of snow engulfed cars, fired up wood stoves, broke out coal oil lanterns or > Aladdin lamps and put on an extra layer of clothes. > > Even though a Category “5” blizzard of this scale has never fallen this early…we know it can happen and how to deal with it ourselves. > Everybody is fine. It’s kind of like that where I live (coastal Maine). People are very independent and are used to helping each other. There is little welfare. Whenever someone is in trouble there are suppers and bake sales and community collections to help our neighboors. The businesses donate time, help and money. Unfortunately, I’m afraid this is passing with the older generation dying off and new people from away (mostly Boston) buying up the cheap homes and bringing the rudeness and isolation they live with in the city to our small town. I saw a “no trespassing” sign on the fence of a new resident last week. Never seen one here before. And I’d never even seen a fence until a couple of years ago. I can’t move any further away (except for Alaska); Canada is within eyesight of my back door. ---
**Author:** ![uglybeech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/82dd89/32.png) [@uglybeech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/uglybeech)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2005, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weather-bulletin-from-montana-and-north-dakota/326170/46 "2005-10-16T08:21:59Z")
> [@whistlepig](#): > > Actually, your first cite show that the, “Per Capita Tax Burden and Return on Federal Tax Dollar: Fiscal 2003” for Louisiana is 1.43. And Montana’s is 1.52. So you are basing your claim that Montana is, “fiscally sucking the country dry” on the .09% difference between Montana and Louisiana in "fiscal return on federal tax dollar? Math is fundamental too. It’s not a .09% difference. It’s a 9 _cent_ difference. That’s 9 cents more _for every dollar it pays in taxes_ (per capita). That’s a big difference. And the fiscal sucking comes because both Montana and N.D. are making back over 50% more than they’re paying, subsidized largely by states like CA, NH, MA, CT and IL. This is fine. Really poor states need disproportionate federal help. But so do states that are hit with disasters. It’s very easy to keep your blinders up and focus on Montana’s miraculous ability to not have a city destroyed by a hurricane or to not request Federal assistance for a blizzard (although I can’t imagine why they’d need it. When was the last time two feet of snow leveled a city?). But that doesn’t mean anyone needs to be impressed with Montana’s independent spirit as an argument for some sort of libertarian callousness, when the numbers so flatly contradict that reality. ---
**Author:** ![Antonius\_Block](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/51bf81/32.png) [@Antonius\_Block](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antonius_Block)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2005, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weather-bulletin-from-montana-and-north-dakota/326170/47 "2005-10-16T10:41:23Z")
[Regarding the OP] > [@whistlepig](#): > > It came to me without attribution, I posted it without attribution. Show me where I claimed credit. The OP is a word-for-word copy of a post in the online forum of [Fishing Buddy Outdoors](http://www.fishingbuddy.com/forums/topic.php?fid=669755&tid=18792), which appears to be based in North Dakota. The post in question was dated Oct 6, 2005, and submitted by Tim Peterson, who is a “Field Staff” member of [Northstar Outdoors](http://www.northstaroutdoors.com/forums/forum.php?fid=367), a Minnesota-based forum. However you received this text, you could have checked the above for yourself, **whistlepig**. I don’t claim to speak in any way for the SDMB, but if **I** read a post on these boards, I assume that it is original content unless otherwise specified (or obvious from context, such as a _Simpsons_ or _Monty Python_ quote as a mid-thread response). [BBQ Pit suit on] The post that the OP quotes without attribution comes from Minnesota, which according to the [Tax Foundation PDF file for 2003](http://www.taxfoundation.org/files/b4fe1c704862b2ca580ad2a2e31d4961.pdf) received $0.70 for every federal tax dollar sent to DC. That puts them pretty high on the “self-sufficiency” scale; higher, in fact, than my own state of residence (California, 0.78/). So, Tim Peterson’s post, making fun of Louisiana residents (1.47/), although childish, at least had a basis in tax-dollar reality. For a resident of Montana (1.60/) or North Dakota (1.75/) to point the Finger of Fiscal Folly at Louisiana is, quite frankly, pathetic, and **that** is what I took **uglybeech** ’s comments to mean. The events of 2005 will undoubtedly push Louisiana’s “federal tax dollars returned” figures way above those of MT and ND. However, there is no question in my mind that the infrastructure (port facilities, refineries, tourist sites, etc) of the areas affected by the 2005 hurricanes are far more critical to the US economy as a whole than _anything_ in Montana. I say this as someone who has spent some enjoyable time in Big Sky Country. Shame on the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Punoqllads](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d2c977/32.png) [@Punoqllads](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Punoqllads)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2005, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weather-bulletin-from-montana-and-north-dakota/326170/48 "2005-10-16T11:04:57Z")
For all the people arguing about whose state is less wussier about weather than the others, please take heart. No matter how angstful your residents get over your climate, you can always look to California, where every year around September the entire state shuts down because _everyone has forgotten how to drive in the rain._ ---
**Author:** ![fluiddruid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@fluiddruid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fluiddruid)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2005, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weather-bulletin-from-montana-and-north-dakota/326170/49 "2005-10-16T12:57:14Z")
> [@whistlepig](#): > > It came to me without attribution, I posted it without attribution. Show me where I claimed credit. I don’t think so, **whistlepig**. If you’re posting something, you’re implying that it is your own work. Failure to point out otherwise is indeed implying that you are to credit for it. Consider this a formal warning – do not take credit for another author’s work. ---
**Author:** ![uglybeech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/82dd89/32.png) [@uglybeech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/uglybeech)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2005, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weather-bulletin-from-montana-and-north-dakota/326170/50 "2005-10-17T01:40:39Z")
> [@Antonius Block](#): > > For a resident of Montana (1.60/) or North Dakota (1.75/) to point the Finger of Fiscal Folly at Louisiana is, quite frankly, pathetic, and **that** is what I took **uglybeech** ’s comments to mean. Quite. Thanks. I’d like to make one amendment though. It’s not that he’s a resident of Montana. I don’t think residency in any state entitles you or disqualifies you from discussing federal appropriations. It’s that he pointed to those two states in particular as models of rugged independence in order to decry Lousiana receiving federal assistance. Fiscally speaking, those are two of the biggest glass houses in the country. That’s what was what was so pathetic. ---
**Author:** ![Plynck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Plynck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plynck)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2005, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weather-bulletin-from-montana-and-north-dakota/326170/51 "2005-10-17T05:06:46Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > I’d most likely agree with you. 😛 > > Sorry about the invective, I was rolling. Fair enough. The OP (with the followup explanation from him that we all were “missing the point”) put me into a slow burn, and I was sort of rolling myself. An electronic handshake is offered. > [@suezeekay](#): > > Unfortunately, I’m afraid this is passing with the older generation dying off and new people from away (mostly Boston) buying up the cheap homes and bringing the rudeness and isolation they live with in the city to our small town. **suezeekay** , if I had to guess, I’d say that it isn’t Boston, or any city that is causing this. (I may be biased in this, however 🙂 ) It is people who have too much money, and the attitude that it entitles them to more rights and responsibilities than others, rather than just more material goods. You said that you came from coastal Maine. Every coastal community is feeling this, and it is putting a strain on communities. Try visiting Nantucket to see just how separated people can become from the way real people live. ---
**Author:** ![NinetyWt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/cc9497/32.png) [@NinetyWt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinetyWt)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2005, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weather-bulletin-from-montana-and-north-dakota/326170/52 "2005-10-17T07:10:15Z")
**whistlepig** , I really have a problem with your OP. Do you think that this catastrophe _only_ happened to New Orleans? Take a look at the news reports. Coastal areas from Louisiana to Alabama were wiped off the map. What’s your premise here? Do you suggest that people not populate the coast? For 50 miles inland? 100? From a practical standpoint, some industries _must_ be located on the coast. Oil and seafood, for two. Are you suggesting that people who work in these industries commute in and out of some “hurricane-free” zone? Or should we just forget about gasoline and shellfish? While we’re at it, lets make everyone move out of Los Angeles and Memphis. 'Cause, ya know, those earthquake zones could pop any minute! Bear in mind that “flood risk” zones are based upon historic data. For the Mississippi coast, that means Hurricane Camille (1969). Unfortunately, Katrina was statistically “off the scale” - areas which did not experience flooding from Camille were inundated from Katrina. How does that translate into “not being smart enough to build out of harm’s way” - ? Build higher than the storm of the century? They DID. The answer for the coast is smarter rebuilding - better building codes and zoning. The answer is NOT comparing “my disaster’s more horrible than yours”. I had thought much better of you. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Plynck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Plynck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plynck)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2005, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weather-bulletin-from-montana-and-north-dakota/326170/53 "2005-10-17T09:38:02Z")
> [@Plynck](#): > > …and the attitude that it entitles them to more rights and responsibilities than others… :smack: And, of course, by that I meant that it “entitles them to more rights and \*fewer \* responsibilities than others.” ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2005, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weather-bulletin-from-montana-and-north-dakota/326170/54 "2005-10-17T17:05:56Z")
> [@whistlepig](#): > > It came to me without attribution, I posted it without attribution. Show me where I claimed credit. > > And apparently other people find it relevant. > > whistlepig Wait, we’re establishing the relevancy of internet glurge based on volume, now? Someone better get on the horn to Bill Gates and tell him to start writing out checks for all those forwarded e-mails. I guess with logic like that, it’s no wonder you had to resort to plagiarism for your OP. “Those that can’t do, steal,” as they say. What else have you posted around here that wasn’t yours, I wonder? ---
**Author:** ![alice\_in\_wonderland](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alice_in_wonderland/32/176_2.png) [@alice\_in\_wonderland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alice_in_wonderland)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2005, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weather-bulletin-from-montana-and-north-dakota/326170/55 "2005-10-17T17:17:30Z")
The OP is moronic. I live in Canada, in the prairies. I get snow. A shitload of snow. Blizzards, -40 at least once per year, etc, etc. My boss used to live in Miami and described a hurricane to me. Rain was blowing _THROUGH_ his oak front door. We just don’t get that shit here, and comparing a blizzard where a few people were stranded, some were without power, and 12 or 15 died from shoveling their walks, with a hurricane that killed over 1,000 people, and left people stranded and homeless, shut down a city and caused riots, is totally moronic. I suppose next he’s going to be bitching about those stupid Sri Lankians for living where a tsunami could hit, and those dumb Pakistanis for living where there are earthquakes. Moron, moron, moron. It’s possibly the dumbest thing I’ve ever read. Certainly the dumbest thing I’ve read this month. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2005, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weather-bulletin-from-montana-and-north-dakota/326170/56 "2005-10-17T17:40:01Z")
> [@yellowval](#): > > This doesn’t really relate much to the argument at hand, but your statement pissed me off. > > I don’t know about Montana and North Dakota, but out in the middle of nowhere where I live, cities, townships, counties, and states build and maintain most of the roads. I’m sorry if our “communities” are worthless to you. They’re our homes and are no less important than the big cities. Well **uglybeech** is making my points. The thing is, the OP is plainly stating that the people in ND are “independent” and can take care of themselves without help. This is a theme conservatives use to decry the welfare system. The love the ‘pulled themselves up by their bootstraps’ stories For some people, this is also a mask for their racism as they equate welfare recipients with blacks. So that is how it relates to the argument at hand. The OP hates the idea that we are spending all this money, and he believes ‘his’ money on these stupid, weak people and that the tough people, who are able to fend for themselves are paying for it. Except the tough independent people of ND are not that independent because they are dependent on Federal dollars. I never said your communities are worthless. Hell, I pay for them to be there and I don’t bitch about it. Your cities, towns and states get dollars from the federal government to build roads. Remember that Highway bill that passed just before the hurricane? That’s the money. There is also federal farm subsidies, and your state, gets just as much as my state, (New York) in Homeland Security dollars to spend on making you safer from terrorists. (though they are working on changing that system) I don’t mind paying federal taxes and then having that money spent elsewhere in the country. I do hate it when they are not only ingrateful bastards but think that they picked up the check themselves. ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2005, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weather-bulletin-from-montana-and-north-dakota/326170/57 "2005-10-17T19:44:10Z")
> [@whistlepig](#): > > It came to me without attribution, I posted it without attribution. Show me where I claimed credit. > > And apparently other people find it relevant. It’s only relevant as far as folks being able to file you under _‘dipshit’_ or _‘unoriginal dipshit’_. To make it easier, could you put _‘unoriginal dipshit’_ in your sig line next time you post glurdge? Thanks. That’d help a lot. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weather-bulletin-from-montana-and-north-dakota/326170.md?page=2)