# Web site fraud and World of Warcraft (long ass rant) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 16, 2006, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/web-site-fraud-and-world-of-warcraft-long-ass-rant/384368 "2006-12-16T03:30:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2006, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/web-site-fraud-and-world-of-warcraft-long-ass-rant/384368/161 "2006-12-20T03:24:27Z")
[QUOTE=Sailboat] Forgive my ignorance, but isn’t that the basis of raising real estate assessments? I pay more on my house this year because the value\* if I sell\* it is now higher…even though I don’t sell? Sailboat [/QUOTE] Your house is your property. My character’s in-game possessions are not property. If your house is burned down by your neighbour, you have legal recourse. You may sue for damages. Assaults on your property are subject to penalty under criminal law. In contrast, when I’m playing EVE Online and my ship gets blown up by some ganksquad, I have no recourse. They are subject to no penalty (barring various game mechanics that they willingly deal with). My heavy assault cruiser is worth about $75 (I think - I don’t keep track of what currency sells for much), but if it’s nerfed it might suddenly be virtually worthless, and again I’d have no recourse. I will, however, consent to paying taxes on my in-game income under one condition: that I can pay the taxes on my real life income in in-game currency. Hey, if it’s real enough to tax, then it’s real enough to count as payment. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2006, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/web-site-fraud-and-world-of-warcraft-long-ass-rant/384368/162 "2006-12-20T04:05:48Z")
[QUOTE=Gorsnak] I will, however, consent to paying taxes on my in-game income under one condition: that I can pay the taxes on my real life income in in-game currency. Hey, if it’s real enough to tax, then it’s real enough to count as payment. [/QUOTE] I’m totally up for that. 1 million Icelandic Krona = $14,500. 😃 A good EVE player can make that in an hour or so. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2006, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/web-site-fraud-and-world-of-warcraft-long-ass-rant/384368/163 "2006-12-20T14:40:33Z")
[QUOTE=Dangerosa] Then they have to prove it. What they can do is ask Blizzard to turn over accounts that seem to have a history of farming drops that have real world value. Then they target those people for audit. However, a little research is going to show that this isn’t a good idea - hard to collect U.S. income taxes on a Korean citizen, there isn’t really enough gain here to make it worth the effort. Its some congressman blowing smoke out his ass. Which they often do with the internet. [/QUOTE] I did a little (10 minutes) research, and it isn’t even Congress blowing smoke - it’s gamers themselves. [US Joint Economic Committee Mulls Virtual Taxation](http://www.lawandtax-news.com/asp/story.asp?storyname=25222) (dated 26-Oct-2006): > [@](#): > > Last week it was announced that the US Joint Economic Committee will begin a study of the interactions between the virtual economies of online role-playing games such as World of Warcraft and Second Life, and the official US economy… > > Chairman Jim Saxton went on to add that: > “There is a concern that the IRS might step forward with regulations that start taxing transactions that occur within virtual economies. This, I believe, would be a mistake."… > > The Committee observed that: > “Such distinctions should be addressed and resolved in a common-sense manner. Clearly, virtual economies represent an area where technology has outpaced the law. The goal of the forthcoming JEC study is to help lawmakers understand the issues involved and head off any premature attempt to impose a tax on virtual economies.” Most articles on game and computer sites and in their offline publications ignore the incredible difficulty any tax agency would have taxing items that haven’t been monetized. The IRS should collect from those who do monetize their game playing - that is income - although it probably isn’t a good use of limited resources. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2006, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/web-site-fraud-and-world-of-warcraft-long-ass-rant/384368/164 "2006-12-20T14:44:25Z")
[QUOTE=Sailboat] Forgive my ignorance, but isn’t that the basis of raising real estate assessments? I pay more on my house this year because the value\* if I sell\* it is now higher…even though I don’t sell? Sailboat [/QUOTE] You’re confusing propert tax and income tax. The Fed and the States have many ways to tax you. Property taxes rise with increasing values, but you’ll pay no income (capital gains) tax on your home until you decide to sell (even then, there is a certain threshold of gain that is excluded from income on the sale of your primary home). ---
**Author:** ![John\_Corrado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a88e4f/32.png) [@John\_Corrado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Corrado)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2006, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/web-site-fraud-and-world-of-warcraft-long-ass-rant/384368/165 "2006-12-20T14:56:51Z")
[QUOTE=faithfool] So I’ll disappear from the WoW universe now and go get me some egg nog instead. [/QUOTE] I’d join you, except that I hate having to farm swoops in Mulgore for small eggs, and the AH prices are just insane. ---
**Author:** ![fluiddruid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@fluiddruid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fluiddruid)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2006, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/web-site-fraud-and-world-of-warcraft-long-ass-rant/384368/166 "2006-12-20T16:18:02Z")
[QUOTE=John Corrado] I’d join you, except that I hate having to farm swoops in Mulgore for small eggs, and the AH prices are just insane. [/QUOTE] Come over to Westfall. We love visitors! ---
**Author:** ![lisacurl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/41988e/32.png) [@lisacurl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisacurl)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2006, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/web-site-fraud-and-world-of-warcraft-long-ass-rant/384368/167 "2006-12-20T16:52:08Z")
[QUOTE=John Corrado] I’d join you, except that I hate having to farm swoops in Mulgore for small eggs, and the AH prices are just insane. [/QUOTE] Dude, the Moonkin east of Auberdine in Darkshore are much easier to kill and less farmed. Er, unless you’re on a pvp server. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Corrado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a88e4f/32.png) [@John\_Corrado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Corrado)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2006, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/web-site-fraud-and-world-of-warcraft-long-ass-rant/384368/168 "2006-12-20T17:36:32Z")
[QUOTE=lisacurl] Dude, the Moonkin east of Auberdine in Darkshore are much easier to kill and less farmed. Er, unless you’re on a pvp server. 😃 [/QUOTE] Whereever I go, I’m a level 40 killing creatures that give me no XP and no worthwhile treasure. Why should I go someplace I don’t have a flightpath to? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/web-site-fraud-and-world-of-warcraft-long-ass-rant/384368/169 "2006-12-22T02:51:48Z")
This was just posted on the Blizzard website: > [@](#): > > In our continued efforts to combat cheating in World of Warcraft, more than 105,000 accounts were closed and over 12 million gold was removed from the game economies in Europe, Korea, and the US in the month of November. The closed accounts were associated with activities that violate World of Warcraft’s Terms of Use, such as using third-party programs that allow cheating, and farming gold and items. These types of activities can severely impact the economy of a realm and the overall game enjoyment for all players. 105k in one month is not a paltry number no matter how many subs you have, i firmly believe Blizzard is trying as best as they can to combat the gold sellers, and while i doubt they can stop it losing that many accounts and inventory has got to hurt them a bit. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/web-site-fraud-and-world-of-warcraft-long-ass-rant/384368/170 "2006-12-22T15:46:22Z")
[QUOTE=DigitalC] This was just posted on the Blizzard website: 105k in one month is not a paltry number no matter how many subs you have, i firmly believe Blizzard is trying as best as they can to combat the gold sellers, and while i doubt they can stop it losing that many accounts and inventory has got to hurt them a bit. [/QUOTE] Yep–assuming all of those accounts were paying the $13/month amount, that means Blizzard is losing over $1,300,000 a month with this move. Of course, if those accounts all purchase new copies of the game and continue their activities, Blizzard stands to earn about $5,000,000 through this move. It’s a gamble! Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Cyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a88e4f/32.png) [@Cyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyn)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/web-site-fraud-and-world-of-warcraft-long-ass-rant/384368/171 "2006-12-22T17:28:44Z")
[QUOTE=DigitalC] This was just posted on the Blizzard website: 105k in one month is not a paltry number no matter how many subs you have, i firmly believe Blizzard is trying as best as they can to combat the gold sellers, and while i doubt they can stop it losing that many accounts and inventory has got to hurt them a bit. [/QUOTE] One of the big things to remember and another reason to avoid leveling services and their ilk. Many such services use leveling accounts in their posession as gold mules. That way it cannot be traced back to the gold seller because the people moving the gold look like hundreds if not thousands of typical players. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/web-site-fraud-and-world-of-warcraft-long-ass-rant/384368/172 "2006-12-22T18:26:19Z")
So, a question. I dislike cheating in games for many of the reasons given already, but I’m not convinced that cheaters destroy the economy. Don’t they instead just raise prices for buyers AND sellers, leading to general inflation? I’m not sure that I’d have nearly as much money as I do were it not for folks willing to pay 20 gold for a holiday shirt pattern (which was apparently way underpriced, given how quickly it sold), and I’m not sure they’d be willing to pay as much were it not for gold farming. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/web-site-fraud-and-world-of-warcraft-long-ass-rant/384368/173 "2006-12-22T18:44:57Z")
[QUOTE=Left Hand of Dorkness] So, a question. I dislike cheating in games for many of the reasons given already, but I’m not convinced that cheaters destroy the economy. Don’t they instead just raise prices for buyers AND sellers, leading to general inflation? [/QUOTE] I don’t play this games but I think there is a logical flaw here. The problem is that the equivalent of salary in this world doesn’t change. Gold is made by selling things but also by doing things. You have to do things like make more stuff or kill more monsters to buy the equivalent items. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/web-site-fraud-and-world-of-warcraft-long-ass-rant/384368/174 "2006-12-22T18:46:34Z")
[QUOTE=hajario] I don’t play this games but I think there is a logical flaw here. The problem is that the equivalent of salary in this world doesn’t change. Gold is made by selling things but also by doing things. You have to do things like make more stuff or kill more monsters to buy the equivalent items. [/QUOTE] That’s an interesting point. The thing is, though, I get my items to sell by killing monsters, and the vastly inflated prices at the AH mean that I have a lot more money than I’d otherwise have. True, it devalues the gold I get directly from monsters, but I’m not sure that that is a large percent of the cash I end up with in the game anyway. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/web-site-fraud-and-world-of-warcraft-long-ass-rant/384368/175 "2006-12-22T18:51:42Z")
How fast paced is this inflation? If one has been saving for a while to get a super costly item, his gold in the bank loses value. ---
**Author:** ![Jayn\_Newell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Jayn\_Newell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jayn_Newell)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/web-site-fraud-and-world-of-warcraft-long-ass-rant/384368/176 "2006-12-22T19:12:58Z")
**Dorkness** , one of the other problems with gold farmers is that they crowd out people who are farming for legitimate reasons. They’ll always be in the best farming areas, meaning more competition for the rest of us or having to farm in a less desireable spot (as a mage, farming for essences of water thanks due to crowding in Felwood), so it’s harder for players to find the drops they’re looking for, sometimes forcing them to buy it off the AH. A lot of them are hunters too, and hunter tracking is a pain to compete with. There’s also been areas where the drops have been altered due to excess farming, Scarlet Monastery graveyard comes to mind. It’s just harder overall for regular players to earn cash thanks to these guys. And I’ve heard horror stories about these guys in instance groups. And the next rogue to ask me [this](http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v144/Jayn_Newell//chinesepoop.jpg) is getting hit upside the head with a frozen muffin. I love my class I love my class I love my class… ---
**Author:** ![Jayn\_Newell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Jayn\_Newell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jayn_Newell)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/web-site-fraud-and-world-of-warcraft-long-ass-rant/384368/177 "2006-12-22T19:15:08Z")
> [@the idiot above me](#): > > (as a mage, farming for essences of water **sucks** thanks to crowding in Felwood) _sighs_ ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/web-site-fraud-and-world-of-warcraft-long-ass-rant/384368/178 "2006-12-22T19:54:13Z")
[QUOTE=hajario] How fast paced is this inflation? If one has been saving for a while to get a super costly item, his gold in the bank loses value. [/QUOTE] Even if your goods also go up in value gold farmers are on 24/7 doing absolutely nothing other than pumping gold into the economy, theres just no way you can keep up. ---
**Author:** ![Sierra\_Indigo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f0a364/32.png) [@Sierra\_Indigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sierra_Indigo)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/web-site-fraud-and-world-of-warcraft-long-ass-rant/384368/179 "2006-12-22T22:25:15Z")
> [@Jayn\_Newell](#): > > And I’ve heard horror stories about these guys in instance groups. It’s not just the farmers who make instances a terror (though they are pretty friggin’ shocking), but people who use auto-levelling services often don’t know how to play their class. They’re not interested in the mechanics of playing the character, they’re just in it for the phat lewts. Which means when they do get to the high-end instances, you’ve got squishies who over-aggro, healers who don’t know how to care for your main tank and tanks who can’t hold the fucking aggro. Which means wipe city more often than not, because a good instance run is about every class playing their role properly. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2006, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/web-site-fraud-and-world-of-warcraft-long-ass-rant/384368/180 "2006-12-23T04:11:06Z")
[QUOTE=Sierra Indigo] It’s not just the farmers who make instances a terror (though they are pretty friggin’ shocking), but people who use auto-levelling services often don’t know how to play their class. They’re not interested in the mechanics of playing the character, they’re just in it for the phat lewts. Which means when they do get to the high-end instances, you’ve got squishies who over-aggro, healers who don’t know how to care for your main tank and tanks who can’t hold the fucking aggro. Which means wipe city more often than not, because a good instance run is about every class playing their role properly. [/QUOTE] Y’all are raising good points. Of course, I’m probably gonna be pretty bad in end-run instances as well, given how rarely I play :o. On the rare occasions that I go itno an instance, I warn folks that I’m not terribly experienced and am happy to get their feedback, and I do respond to it (more AoE? Less? Happy to oblige!). But that’s different, I guess, from folks who are decked out in purple who don’t know what they’re doing. Daniel [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/web-site-fraud-and-world-of-warcraft-long-ass-rant/384368.md?page=8)