# Weekly Comic Book Discussion : 1/29/2009 **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 29, 2009, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weekly-comic-book-discussion-1-29-2009/483491 "2009-01-29T02:37:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2009, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weekly-comic-book-discussion-1-29-2009/483491/1 "2009-01-29T02:37:24Z")
Final Crisis #7 is out! ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2009, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weekly-comic-book-discussion-1-29-2009/483491/2 "2009-01-29T03:33:49Z")
you mean 1/28, right? ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2009, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weekly-comic-book-discussion-1-29-2009/483491/3 "2009-01-29T03:37:11Z")
It’s out, and boy is it…well…it’s really…:dubious::eek:😕… yeah. It’s a lot like Morrison’s Batman R.I.P. storyline in that it’s…well it is. I think Morrison needs to leave the weird stuff to Warren Ellis. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2009, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weekly-comic-book-discussion-1-29-2009/483491/4 "2009-01-29T03:39:42Z")
I don’t think that Morrison should be allowed to write comics for a long while. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2009, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weekly-comic-book-discussion-1-29-2009/483491/5 "2009-01-29T06:12:18Z")
I think Morrison should be forced to read and watch the entire Diniverse content. Then the Marvel Adventures content. Actually, I think everyone should, but hey. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2009, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weekly-comic-book-discussion-1-29-2009/483491/6 "2009-01-29T14:05:09Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > you mean 1/28, right? Nope. I always date these on the Thursday date, regardless of when they go up. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2009, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weekly-comic-book-discussion-1-29-2009/483491/7 "2009-01-29T16:13:49Z")
Final “Final Crisis” questions. Spoilers ahoy. I’m not gonna box 'em, just space down. You’ve been warned. 1. So…Bats isn’t dead, just lost in time? I’m ok with that. It’s not like anyone expected Bruce to stay dead. But then…who’s body is Superman lugging around in Final Crisis #6 and #7? 2. Wait…Brainy showed Supes the Miracle Machine so that Supes could build his own? Why not just let Supes use the real one? If you’re going to use a reality-altering machine, shouldn’t you use the one that was built by professionals and not one cobbled together with stone knives and bearskins? And how did Supes build one by _looking at the original_? Even counting x-ray vision and super intelligence, if you gave the world’s smartest caveman an x-ray of the interior of a Plasma Screen TV and let him look at the outside, he couldn’t build one. 3. So…wait…what happened at the end? I thought we were supposed to get new New Gods–the guys I saw looked just like the old ones. And I thought the 5th Age was the age of “Gods In Men”. So why were all the New Gods hanging around all corporeal like that? 4. If Supes’ big wish was “I wish for a happy ending”, shouldn’t J’onn be alive again? J’onn didn’t get a happy ending ☹ 5. What was Darkseid up to with Libra anyway? Libra and his army didn’t really…do…anything did they? 6. While we’re at it (and I admit that I might have missed it), what happened to Turpin? 7. So after all that, what’s changed in the DCU? J’onn & Bruce are dead…until they get better, Mary Marvel may still be eee-vil until she gets better, but what are the bigger ramifications? Is Earth 51 still dead? Does crossing worlds still weaken the multiverse? * * * On an unrelated note, Ultimate Spider-Man #133 (give or take) is the final issue. Rumor has it that there will be a Ultimate Universe reboot. In which case, it’ll be a good time to quit. The freaking line is only about 7 years old or so. Sheesh. I don’t want to read another 6 issue long retelling of the 10 page story from Amazing Fantasy #15. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2009, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weekly-comic-book-discussion-1-29-2009/483491/8 "2009-01-29T17:04:39Z")
I really have to go back through all the Final Crisis stuff, and maybe do an issue by issue – or frame by frame – analysis. Sooo confusing. Way too compressed. > [@Fenris](#): > > 1. So…Bats isn’t dead, just lost in time? I’m ok with that. It’s not like anyone expected Bruce to stay dead. But then…who’s body is Superman lugging around in Final Crisis #6 and #7? The Omega Sanction sends him through a _series_ of lives, each worse than the last. He’ll presumably end up dead in each of 'em on his way to the next one. So… they’re _both_ Bruce. I’m wondering if he’s leaving his bat symbol in the cave painting to let people find out when he was/is. > [@Fenris](#): > > 1. Wait…Brainy showed Supes the Miracle Machine so that Supes could build his own? Why not just let Supes use the real one? If you’re going to use a reality-altering machine, shouldn’t you use the one that was built by professionals and not one cobbled together with stone knives and bearskins? And how did Supes build one by _looking at the original_? Even counting x-ray vision and super intelligence, if you gave the world’s smartest caveman an x-ray of the interior of a Plasma Screen TV and let him look at the outside, he couldn’t build one. Eh, I just assumed that, in looking at the miracle machine, Superman wished he could memorize it, and hey! miracle! he could memorize it. > [@Fenris](#): > > 1. So…wait…what happened at the end? I thought we were supposed to get new New Gods–the guys I saw looked just like the old ones. And I thought the 5th Age was the age of “Gods In Men”. So why were all the New Gods hanging around all corporeal like that? And: is there only _one_ Apokalips/New Genesis in the multiverse, or is there one per multiple universe? At least Lightray’s back. _grumble_ > [@Fenris](#): > > 1. If Supes’ big wish was “I wish for a happy ending”, shouldn’t J’onn be alive again? J’onn didn’t get a happy ending ☹ Sort of a question of whom Superman wished the happy ending for. But, really, the entire aftermath is a muddle. Did Hawkman/Hawkgirl survive? Seems implied not, but? How about Black Canary and Green Arrow? The Japanese superteam mock-JLA, are they the Forever People of the Fifth World? The Specter and the Radiance, dead? > [@Fenris](#): > > 1. What was Darkseid up to with Libra anyway? Libra and his army didn’t really…do…anything did they? Libra bugged out and Lex took over his brain-controlled army. So Libra’s army got turned against Darkseid-in-all-humans. What a hot mess. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2009, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weekly-comic-book-discussion-1-29-2009/483491/9 "2009-01-29T17:37:31Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > Eh, I just assumed that, in looking at the miracle machine, Superman wished he could memorize it, and hey! miracle! he could memorize it. Great idea, but I doubt that’s what _nouveau_-hack Morrison had in mind. 🙂 Besides, if that were the case, why not simply wish for the ability to create another Miracle Machine? ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2009, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weekly-comic-book-discussion-1-29-2009/483491/10 "2009-01-29T18:48:12Z")
Superman’s got his super-intelligence from the pre-Crisis days back - meaning he’s a twelfth-level intellect like Brainy, with a knowledge of advanced Kryptonian technology. Memorizing the exact molecular makeup of a small box isn’t terribly difficult for him - he doesn’t have to understand how it works fully. The Bat-corpse could also be one of the clones of Bruce that were made. I’ve heard it suggested that there is one Apokolips/New Genesis for the multiverse.. but.. the fact that there’s a Green Lantern from Apokolips implies it’s in one of the normal space sectors, which would argue against that.. and while it’s admittedly flimsy evidence, counterparts of the New Gods exist on Earth-26, Captain Carrot’s world. Speaking of which, totally glad to see the Zoo Crew back in action even if Grant fucked up including Pig-Iron there (he wasn’t stranded with the rest) and didn’t get the earth-number right. (26, not 35.) [QUOTE=Lightray] The Japanese superteam mock-JLA, are they the Forever People of the Fifth World? [/quote] Looks like. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2009, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weekly-comic-book-discussion-1-29-2009/483491/11 "2009-01-29T19:06:30Z")
Bruce Wayne clones? This sounds like the foundation for a potentially mind-boggling dumb series of events. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2009, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weekly-comic-book-discussion-1-29-2009/483491/12 "2009-01-29T19:12:52Z")
So, can anybody tell us why they had to shrink everyone and freeze them in icecube trays to save the world? I mean, why, other than “it’s Morrison”, of course. I know that time was broken/disjointed at the end there, but it seems the sequence is: 1. Earth is compressed in time (on the event horizon of a black hole?), prohibiting the GLs from reaching it. 2. Superman faces Darkseid + Libra’s army 3. Lex turns Libra’s army vs. Darkseid 4. Frankenstein et al, or Radion poisoning, or _something_ (the Flashes bringing the Black Racer?) liberates folks like WW from the Anti-Life equation 5. Somewhere in here, Checkmate escapes to Earth-51, where the Question mysteriously hooks up with Earth-5 Captain Marvel to go collect Supermen. 6. WW ties up Darkseid, liberating everyone (?) 7. Earth has dropped into Darkseid’s black hole at the bottom of time; everyone relocates to the Watchtower/Fortress of Solitude/Titan’s Tower mashup. 8. Everyone builds the Miracle Machine; stuff like the alternate Metal Men happens. 9. Everyone but Superman (and Supergirl??) gets shrunk, and frozen in icecube trays. 10. Superman is left alone at the bottom of time to complete the Miracle Machine. 11. Mandrakk shows up, dialogues. Superman whistles up the Monitor. 12. Monitor summons all the Supermen, allowing the GLs to reach \, _and_ summons the Zoo Crew (?), and the “new” Forever People, and lots of angels (just because). 13. They all kick Mandrakk’s ass, then drag Earth back out of the black hole into real space. 14. The Miracle Machine fixes the Multiverse, giving someone (the Monitors? Earth-51?) a happy ending. So… why shrinky-dink everyone? The Earth they hauled back out was still wrecked by the crisis, so _that_ wasn’t what the Miracle Machine fixed. In fact, some of the people on Earth when Darkseid went down (e.g., the Tiger guys) ended up on Earth-51 with Kamandi, so they didn’t die when Earth followed. And, of course, why the heck was Supergirl elsewhere after everyone had been frozen and Superman was finishing the Miracle Machine? The “East Wall”? Ugh. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2009, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weekly-comic-book-discussion-1-29-2009/483491/13 "2009-01-29T19:30:47Z")
At what point in there did Batman bust a cap in Darkseid’s ass? ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2009, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weekly-comic-book-discussion-1-29-2009/483491/14 "2009-01-29T19:33:17Z")
Just had a thought: If Morrison needed a gun-wielding Batman and there was all this confusion of time and alternate Earths, why didn’t he just have 1939 Batman do it? ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2009, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weekly-comic-book-discussion-1-29-2009/483491/15 "2009-01-29T19:39:15Z")
The Bruce Wayne clones were way back in the Final Crisis events, intended as possible “host” bodies for Apokaliptian gods. Old news even for Final Crisis, and in the way of Morrison happenings, will be quietly forgotten immediately. Batman shot Darkseid right before Superman shows up… so in between #0 and #1 on my list, above. Darkseid basically shrugs it off until the Black Racer shows up, as far as I can tell. An alternate Batman didn’t play a pivotal role in the Final Crisis plotline for the same reason that an alternate Superman didn’t – because they’re not the main characters. No one cares if _some guy LIKE Batman_ did something, only if _Batman_ did. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2009, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weekly-comic-book-discussion-1-29-2009/483491/16 "2009-01-29T19:39:22Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > So, can anybody tell us why they had to shrink everyone and freeze them in icecube trays to save the world? I mean, why, other than “it’s Morrison”, of course. Actually, I think that “It’s Morrison” is pretty much the best explanation. The guy likes cosmic weirdness simply because it’s cosmically weird. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2009, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weekly-comic-book-discussion-1-29-2009/483491/17 "2009-01-29T19:45:33Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > At what point in there did Batman bust a cap in Darkseid’s ass? Last issue. Between #0 and #1 on **Lightray’s** synopsis. Apparently the Libra thing was to set up the next event “The Day Evil Won” which is the next big event and this “Faces of Evil” thing is a prologue to. The DC bad-guys actually take over-and not in a sneaky way like in Marvel, they actually _win_. Where “Blackest Night” fits in, I dunno. ---
**Author:** ![Freejooky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ba8739/32.png) [@Freejooky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freejooky)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2009, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weekly-comic-book-discussion-1-29-2009/483491/18 "2009-01-29T20:06:46Z")
I’m only going to do this once, and on this board instead of something like CBR Forums. Morrison is a genius, and _Final Crisis_ is outstanding. I loved it _so_ much - just purely magical storytelling, Kirby for the 21st century, compressed metafiction for the age of twitter and youtube. Superheroes as grand narrative for the creative process. The pure love for the DC Universe. It’s an arc, like _Seven Soldiers_, to which other writers will be playing catch-up for _decades_. He’s simply too good for comics, and with the sheer amount of fanboy wtf-responses on the internet, the nerds don’t _deserve_ him. As he says in this great [“exit interview”](http://newsarama.com/comics/010928-Grant-Final-Crisis.html) > [@](#): > > It’s one of the most highly-structured and demanding pieces of work I’ve done and brings to fruition a lot of long-time obsessions, I suppose. It’s my Monitor-vision, high-altitude view of the DCU as an entity; before I take a long-awaited break to do some other work. It’s my sci-fi/horror version of everything I love about DC, everything I ever thought or felt about DC, in one book. It’s about the confusion and excitement of getting into this wild, colourful fictional continuum as a kid, and it’s an attempt to define what makes DC unique and vibrant in relation to other superhero universes. It also offers a full cosmology of higher dimensions, including our own, and an insight into the creative impulse of God, so it’s well worth the cover price, I like to think. It’s filled with interesting and life-changing occult and philosophical secrets too and the more you read it, the more you’ll pick up on them. > > It’s also a deliberate attempt to show how so-called ‘rules’ can be broken to create different kinds of effects in our comics. It’s a way of using superhero comics to talk about the ‘real’ world that doesn’t rely on news headlines, mock-‘relevance’ or ‘adult’ language and imagery. > > I found myself wondering what it would be like if comics’ storytelling stopped aping film or TV and tried a few tricks from opera, for instance. How about dense, allusive, hermetic comics that read more like poetry than prose? How about comics loaded with multiple, prismatic meanings and possibilities? Comics composed like music? In a marketplace dominated by ‘left brain’ books, I thought it might be refreshing to offer an unashamedly ‘right brain’ alternative. > > Just as Marvel Boy in 1999 foreshadowed the storytelling trends of this last decade, Final Crisis is an attempt to predict how ‘channel-zapping’ techniques might develop as the Fifth World of the Information Age of Obama gets underway and begins to define itself in opposition to the previous generation’s ‘rules’. > > It’s all of the above. I was trying to distil everything I love about superhero comics into this loaded, condensed…artefact, which meant using all the lessons I’ve learned in a lifetime’s writing for a living. Amen. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2009, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weekly-comic-book-discussion-1-29-2009/483491/19 "2009-01-29T20:20:59Z")
I’d agree that Morrison is a genius writer, and I did in fact like Final Crisis quite a bit. I just think that Morrison is not an _accessible_ writer. And this is has been a worse problem in FC than in some of his other recent work – such as All-Star Superman or New X-Men. I really get and appreciate that he wanted each frame of FC to be a POW! moment. He skipped too many steps in getting to those moments, though. He needs to learn to show his work, is all. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2009, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weekly-comic-book-discussion-1-29-2009/483491/20 "2009-01-29T20:48:28Z")
1939 Batman isn’t somebody _like_ Batman. He _is_ Batman. One could make a better case that the character as written now is the alternate version since 1939 Batman is the original. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weekly-comic-book-discussion-1-29-2009/483491.md?page=2)