# Weekly Comic Book Discussion 7/14/2005 **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 13, 2005, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weekly-comic-book-discussion-7-14-2005/312423 "2005-07-13T23:12:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weekly-comic-book-discussion-7-14-2005/312423/41 "2005-07-15T11:52:09Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > As I said, his senses give him a better grasp of reality than most. It’s not a matter of deep thought. He is more aware of the world around him on an instinctual level. Thusly, he would be more aware that something is rotten in Denmark. In fact, I think the HoM storyline takes him there for the entire run. > > Man does it feel odd to reply to a black box with a black box. Doesn’t it? 😃 I disagree, though: his senses give him a better grasp of what his senses tell him. You fool his senses, you fool him and this new world can perfectly fool his senses-there _isn’t_ anything wrong in Denmark. We’ve been told it’s not an illusion or parallel world, it’s reality. In this case, Mr. Fantastic would be more likely to figure out the problem. If it was a super-complicated illusion created by Mysterio, Mesmero and Mastermind, say, Wolvie would have no problems figuring it out, IMO. Again, I point to the problems Wolvie had with Proteus: if his senses are telling him something, he believes them–and this world would feed all the proper info to his senses, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weekly-comic-book-discussion-7-14-2005/312423/42 "2005-07-15T12:02:12Z")
> [@Menocchio](#): > > Seriously. I really expected Vicki Vale to back slowly away from Bruce at that revelation. Instead, it just made him more attractove to her. Wow. Either Frank Miller or I really don’t understand women. (OK, that’s not fair, I know I don’t understand women, and I suspect Miller doesn’t understand women who aren’t some variation on ninja hooker 😉 ) Yeah, and as much a fan of good cheesecake art as I am, the "Vicki Vale (who now looks nor acts anything like any previous appearance–and wasn’t she a photographer, not a writer?) who lounges around her apartment in Fredricks of Hollywood underwear thing just didn’t work for me. Can you say “We’re three pages short of story and need filler”? > [@](#): > > Grown men, unless circus professionals, do not cultivate interests in limber pre-pubescent boys. It just ain’t healthy. Yeah. There was a creepy vibe to that bit going on. And what th’ hell was with the Gotham police scene? Why didn’t the sniper just shoot the kid…why snuff the parents and make the eee-vil Gotham cops snuff the kid later? One purely fanboy complaint (that I’d certainly overlook if the story was good): Robin shows up around three years after Batman started _and after Gordon became commissioner_. If, after three years, the GCPD is still filled with kid-murdering loonies, Gordon isn’t doing a very good job, is he? I mean, yeah, it’ll take more than three years to clean up the GCPD, but getting rid of child murderers, especially ones dumb enough to beat up reporters shouldn’t be that tricky. Finally, I still wanna know where Bat’s new Aquaman-like power (control bats and make them swarm on your enemies) comes from. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weekly-comic-book-discussion-7-14-2005/312423/43 "2005-07-15T12:19:16Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > And what th’ hell was with the Gotham police scene? Why didn’t the sniper just shoot the kid…why snuff the parents and make the eee-vil Gotham cops snuff the kid later? Which, in a turn of rather painful irony, would have actually worked somewhat if they’d kept the faked up ‘accident’ rather than the shooting. (I’m with Mennochio on that, BTW - WTF?) A lot easier to miss Dick in the accident and have the cops clean up the mess than…Uhm…forget to shoot him? ---
**Author:** ![Menocchio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@Menocchio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Menocchio)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weekly-comic-book-discussion-7-14-2005/312423/44 "2005-07-15T12:22:15Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > And what th’ hell was with the Gotham police scene? Why didn’t the sniper just shoot the kid…why snuff the parents and make the eee-vil Gotham cops snuff the kid later? I really don’t understand what they were doing with him at all. He saw his parents shot, hundreds of people saw them shot, (including a reporter), the fact that the Graysons were murdered was not going to remain a secret. There’s no earthly reason to beat up the kid about it, just make sure the killer isn’t located. > [@](#): > > Finally, I still wanna know where Bat’s new Aquaman-like power (control bats and make them swarm on your enemies) comes from. It’s not a power. He uses sonic devices to attract the bats from the Batcave (they swarm and attack since that’s what massive amounts of bats do, there’s no control). I think it first appeared in Year One, and was borrowed for a nearly identical scene in Batman Begins. I actually like that scene. (Except for the fact that it further unnecessarily traumatizes Dick, the blood of his parents still wet on his leotard). They even explain that Batman planted the device ahead of time, since he guessed the cops would take Dick here. ---
**Author:** ![Menocchio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@Menocchio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Menocchio)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weekly-comic-book-discussion-7-14-2005/312423/45 "2005-07-15T12:28:52Z")
Btw, I should note that the digressions from continuity- The Graysons being shot instead of falling, Gotham still being unimaginably hellish even after several years with Batman and Gordon, don’t bother me because they contradict the classic story. After all, that’s the point of the All Star line. I don’t like the story because it’s a bad story. The Graysons being shot loses the very cool image of plummeting acrobats. The cops are corrupt well past the point of absurdity. And above all, Batman is a creepy monster. I’m of divided opinion on the gratuitous Vicki Vale cheesecake. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weekly-comic-book-discussion-7-14-2005/312423/46 "2005-07-15T12:55:56Z")
> [@Terrifel](#): > > A vanishingly minor and petty observation, but… > > As someone who was never a huge fan of Marvel Comics as a child, I am still reeling from the revelation, on page 5 of **New Avengers #7** , that Black Bolt’s real name is in fact “Blackagar Boltagon.” :eek: > > **BLACKAGAR BOLTAGON?!** Heh. I’d almost forgotten about that. That was out there, even for a Silver Age relic. ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weekly-comic-book-discussion-7-14-2005/312423/47 "2005-07-15T13:03:18Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > Things are getting tense since they can’t _ahem_ enjoy each others company due to Rogues powers and Gambits raging herpes. I am not an X Men reader, but are you SHITTING me? Gambit’s RAGING HERPES??? (BTW, that would be an interesting epithet…“Gambit’s Raging Herpes, what a shitty day…”) ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weekly-comic-book-discussion-7-14-2005/312423/48 "2005-07-15T13:59:58Z")
> [@RikWriter](#): > > I am not an X Men reader, but are you SHITTING me? Gambit’s RAGING HERPES??? > > (BTW, that would be an interesting epithet…“Gambit’s Raging Herpes, what a shitty day…”) Whoosh. ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weekly-comic-book-discussion-7-14-2005/312423/49 "2005-07-15T14:02:36Z")
I’m reasonably sure Miller has said that All-Star Batman & Robin is in continuity with his other Batman projects – DKR, DKSB, and Year One, and that he recognizes that this fiefdom isn’t necessarily congruent with the details of other DC comics. As long as people keep buying it, he’s going to keep writing it. Re: House of Moon pies, I’ve heard the same rumor that **Leaper** did, with the twist that people closest to Wanda at the operative moment are being most affected. I haven’t read it, but I guess that means that Magneto, who was closest, gets his wish regarding mutant/human relations, and those that are further away get their wishes so long as they don’t conflict with Magneto. And from what I understand about Bendis, he thinks Spidey’s marriage with Mary Jane was always Peter settling after Gwen’s death, so all he cares about is having Gwen (and Uncle Ben) back. –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weekly-comic-book-discussion-7-14-2005/312423/50 "2005-07-15T14:10:31Z")
> [@Cliffy](#): > > And from what I understand about Bendis, he thinks Spidey’s marriage with Mary Jane was always Peter settling after Gwen’s death, so all he cares about is having Gwen (and Uncle Ben) back. > > –Cliffy :dubious: Does anyone know where Mr. Bendis lives. Me and Mr. Happy Fun Bat need to have a…discussion with him. Besides, it was recently revealed that Poor sainted Gwen and Norman Osborne did the nasty (really good term in this case). Gwen gave birth to super powered Ostwins while she was in France and was killed before she could tell Peter. Tiger definitely hit the jackpot with MJ. Gwen was just the warm up. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weekly-comic-book-discussion-7-14-2005/312423/51 "2005-07-15T14:35:40Z")
Aaand…playing catchup on books I hadn’t read yet from the last couple months… Read the Insiders, parts 2-4. I had wanted to get caught up on Outsiders first, but that wasn’t happening, and I was starting to get behind on Titans, so I bit the bullet and read it. Now I regret it. It was a good story. A brilliant story. And Geoff Johns and Judd Winnick are utter, utter bastards. My heart is broken, and I’m in tears. I don’t know why. I’ve seen this plot played out before. It usually doesn’t hit me like this. Geoff, Judd…you suck. Because you don’t bloody suck. I knew it was going to happen…it had to happen. It was the only way it could happen. But, still, I wasn’t prepared for the impact. And Winnick, the son of a bitch, had that nice, sweet little scene with them at the beginning of Outsiders 25, just to twist the knife a little harder. Bastards. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weekly-comic-book-discussion-7-14-2005/312423/52 "2005-07-15T15:33:49Z")
> [@Cliffy](#): > > RAnd from what I understand about Bendis, he thinks Spidey’s marriage with Mary Jane was always Peter settling after Gwen’s death, so all he cares about is having Gwen (and Uncle Ben) back.[/spoiler] > > –Cliffy Which would jibe with A) The “When it’s all over, Spider-Man will be reset to his status circa 1971 again: never married, Harry alive, Gwen alive, Norman never dead, Professor Warren just starting to create the first Spider-Clone, Aunt May unaware of Peter’s identity etc” idea and B) Peter David’s comment that most Marvel writers _hate_ Stan’s decision that Peter and MJ would get married. Regarding Marvel’s ongoing retcon about the Peter/Gwen relationship, this is a pet peeve for me. Anyone who’s read the original stories where Gwen appeared knows that she’s not this perfect, life-affirming saint that she’s made out to be. The majority of the time she was around (roughly Amazing Spider-Man 31-121)She has no personality and four moods: Bitchy and castrating: “Peter, even though you’re a news photographer, and you have to run off to take pictures when there’s action, you must be…A COWARD! :mad:”; Droopy and weepy: “Oh Peter, even though I said never to call me again, I miss you terribly :(” ; Bouncy and lobotomized “O Peter! I’m soooo happy that we’re together. It’s just nummy that we wuv each other so much” or Cowardly, paranoid psycho (“That evil Spider-Man killed my father! I hate him, Peter…and I HATE YOU for not hating him as much as I hate him!”. There _were_ bits and scenes where she was nice, fun, happy,non-psycho. But that didn’t describe most of the 90 issues she was in. I realize that ever since she’s died, there’s been a cult of St. Gwen. And I understand about retcons—which this is. But, excluding her appearance in MARVELS, I’ve never seen a flashback that shows my why everyone loves her so much. In the 90 or so issues she actually appeared in, she rarely showed those qualities. And frankly, I think it’d be interesting if MJ finally blew up and confronted Peter with the actual facts about his relationship with Gwen (“Peter, I know that she was the first girl your own age you dated (Betty Brant doesn’t count) and I know that you have this ongoing guilt-complex about everthing, but really, when it comes down to it, you didn’t have a healthy relationship with Gwen”.) Hell, if the Goblin had kidnapped her like 8 issues earlier, we’d have been in another of the 3 or 4 multi-issue “Gwen breaks up with Peter” periods and he wouldn’t even have been dating her. ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weekly-comic-book-discussion-7-14-2005/312423/53 "2005-07-15T15:48:23Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > Whoosh. Thank God… ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weekly-comic-book-discussion-7-14-2005/312423/54 "2005-07-15T15:49:41Z")
I haven’t read most of the Gwen issues, just what’s in Essential Spidey #2, which is mostly Ditko, and Ditko drew her so bitchy there was no chance of rapproachment until he quit. But yeah, I agree that the Gwen hard-on that all these guys have is pretty silly. It’s been 30 years, y’know? Of course, when I started reading Spidey comics (which I never read much of), it was all Mary Jane, and the hurdle between them was the Black Cat, and Gwen had been dead since I was in diapers. So maybe the fact that I like Peter and MJ being together is because that was the goal when I was reading, and in that way I’m no better than Bendis or Loeb, I just came along later. But still. Stupid. I also hate that when Marvel reprints the issue where Gwen dies (which they do a lot), they often take out the little SNAP by her neck. Of course, if they want Gwen back, then it can’t be Peter that was the one who killed her. But if you want a powerful story, then that makes it so much more horrible. (Indeed, when I saw the first Spider-Man movie and they got to the point with the Goblin holding MJ and the subway car off the bridge, I shouted “Oh shit!” and all the non-geeks in the audience looked at me strangely – but the comics fans there were too transfixed to notice.) OK, rant over. –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![WonK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/bbce88/32.png) [@WonK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WonK)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weekly-comic-book-discussion-7-14-2005/312423/55 "2005-07-15T16:08:42Z")
Putting aside the issue of overdone cheesecake in **All Star Batman & Robin, the Boy Wonder #1** for a second, there remains the question of Miller’s reasons for:[ul]- depict such a dark, even ugly version of Gotham City, - Bruce Wayne implied ongoing (and opportunistic) search for proteges, and - the changes Miller made in the usual depiction of the death of the Flying Grayson’s. [/ul]Looking over the first issue this morning, it occurred to me that Miller is revising Robin’s origins not so much in attempt to rework (and update, for the sensibilities of the day) the established myths, as he did with _Daredevil_ and _Batman_ in the late seventies, but to bring it in line with the continuity that other Batman writers established in his wake. Lots of readers, here and elsewhere, have commented on the influence Miller had, not only on Daredevil (see the Millarworld poll comparing Bendis and Miller’s run on DD- [http://www.millarworld.net/index.php?showtopic=51469](http://www.millarworld.net/index.php?showtopic=51469) ) and Batman (see Jason’s Aiken’s article on that influence on his blog [http://afinerworld2.blogspot.com/2005/07/i…c-universe.html](http://afinerworld2.blogspot.com/2005/07/influence-of-dkr-in-dc-universe.html) ). There’s no question that Miller’s work on those two titles set the standard for the wave of revisionist takes in the DCU and the Marvel 616 Universe: Johns, Palmiotti and Gray’s reworking of _Hawkman_, the remade rogues gallery in the _Flash_, Brubaker’s take on _Catwoman_, Hudlin’s remaking of the _Black Panther_ over at Marvel. [The complaints about Hudlin’s revision of the _Panther_ origin still surprises me. In my opinion, he hasn’t taken any fewer liberties with established continuity than Miller had with _Daredevil_ all those years ago, and sometimes makes me wonder about what they’re really complaining about.] Now, 20+ years later, the examples are too numerous to mention. Moreover those changes have accounted for some of the most interesting things to happen in the mainstream superhero genre since. [The only other development that rivaling Miller’s accomplishment of the late seventies, has to be the concurrent “British Invasion” when Alan Moore sought to depict the implications of superheroes in a more ‘realistic’ environment with _Miracleman_ and the _Watchman_ graphic novel, which likewise opened the door to the work of other writers from the UK: Morrison, Ellis, Milligan, Ennis and Millar.] It’s obvious that Miller is focusing on Dick Grayson’s journey, from talented daredevil acrobat and happy, secure child, to traumatized victim, to Robin, the Boy Wonder, Batman’s protégé and assistant in his turn on _All Star Batman & Robin_ and, I would argue, every changes we’ve seen in the origin myth has been about **speeding Dick Grayson’s** transition along. In fact, Miller’s moving things along so fast, that I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s shown beating on criminals and flashing the the yellow cape, red jacket, green short shorts and pixie boots, by page 20 of _All Star Batman & Robin #2_. When we first meet Robin, he’s about as happy as a child can be. He loves what he does, he’s secure in his parents embrace, and he has the almost daily approval of the crowds for his skills and talents. All that’s taken from him in seconds as his parents, are cut down in front of him. And although his parents have told him to trust authority, in the form of the police, everything he experiences in the next hour, tells him that his parents misplaced their faith. Gotham’s police are portrayed as a uniformly faceless occupying army that routinely intimidates citizens and sexually abuse women. Through Vicky Vale’s suspicions, the shots where a cop slaps her down, and other cops try to get Grayson to get him to deny that he saw that night, the reader is given to understand that corruption is so widespread in Gotham that cops routinely cover up crimes, even murder, and that the idea that they might beat, and otherwise abuse a child who just saw his parents die, isn’t hard for a local reporter to believe. Dick sees all of this, and his recollection of his parents exhorting him to have faith in authority, suggests the death of his idealism and his growing anger. There is none of the confusion or bewilderment one would expect from the original version of Robin’s origin. (Did the Grayson’s fall?) The fact Dick’s parents were killed, and the idea the expected sources of protection and justice, in the form of the GCPD, would conspire to cover it up and force him to “forget” he saw the killer, is firmly established in the child’s mind (and along with his physical skills), making him the perfect new recruit for the obsessed Bruce Wayne’s mad crusade. This version of Dick Grayson will be more than willing to hop on board and get with the program, much as Cassandra Cain was virtually a ready made crimefighter when she showed up in Gotham City during _Batman: No Man’s Land_ (except where she needed to learn acrobatics, Dick Grayson had to learn how to fight. Where she was motivated by guilt. Dick will be motivated, like Batman, at first by a need for revenge. She didn’t need to learn how to temper her skills. Dick will likely need to find reasons not to go overboard.) As for this Bruce Wayne’s suspicious “talent scouting”, his being on the lookout for protege’s or assistants, may well be Miller’s attempt to retcon Batman’s willingness to bring in, not only Dick, but later on Jason Todd, Cassandra Cain, Tim Drake, Stephanie Brown (despite his doubts) and eventually Carrie King and even (in the far flung future) Terry McGuinness. It may also be part and parcel of DC’s current renewed attempt at reinforcing continuity. Williams, Johnson and Fisher have an “early days” retelling of the origins of Victor Fries transision from Victor Fries to Mr. Freeze (in \*Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight #192, 193-on), which shows a young pre-Robin Batman recruiting a network of operatives, along the lines of the Shadows Network or Doc Savage’s assistants in the pulps. That this effort is obviously doomed to failure from the start, may well lead to a retelling of his decision to recruit closer assistants, like the not-yet orphaned (in that story) Dick Grayson. ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weekly-comic-book-discussion-7-14-2005/312423/56 "2005-07-15T17:54:35Z")
I am loving the New Avengers. The fight with the Wrecker was fantastic especially with the way he cleaned Wolverine’s clock. Not sure what to think about the Sentry. Anyone have any thoughts or ideas that they would like to share? I do hope that they maintain his existence within the greater MU. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weekly-comic-book-discussion-7-14-2005/312423.md?page=2)