# Weekly Comic Book Discussion 8/4/2005 **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 3, 2005, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weekly-comic-book-discussion-8-4-2005/315490 "2005-08-03T22:53:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2005, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weekly-comic-book-discussion-8-4-2005/315490/121 "2005-08-10T12:30:49Z")
> [@Lochdale](#): > > I have no problem with that. It is not, however, canon in the MU and it is unlikely it ever will be. The fact that Busiek referenced it himself is more than a little self-serving to be honest. Well, nothing’s in Marvel canon really. That’s the company who’d whistle innocently while sweeping Ben Reilly’s ashes under the rug, after all. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2005, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weekly-comic-book-discussion-8-4-2005/315490/122 "2005-08-10T15:24:29Z")
> [@Menocchio](#): > > Because in the post-Crisis period Superman’s vulnerability can be broken up into two categories: > > 1. Versus Spells. Mind control, transformation, involuntary teleportation, whatever. They don’t directly damage the Man of Steel, but he has no superhuman resistance against them (indeed, in some rare cases he seems extraordinarily vulnerable to magic influences). > > 2. Versus Magic Attacks. The crux of the arguments here. Thor’s hammer, Diana’s tiara, Captain Marvel’s lightning and fists. Superman sometimes seems to have no superhuman protection against them, sometimes seems more vulnerable to them (but still less so than a normal human, Captain Marvel’s lightning would have fried you or I), and sometimes seems to affect him no more than a “mundane” attack of comparable force. > > Since Category 1 seems to have carried over intact from pre-Crisis, I was wonder what Superman’s reaction to Category 2 was, since I don’t recall ever seeing him face it directly. Hey, you ask me why, I gave you an answer of why people perceive it that way. But still, we are still free to see it that way, a la’: Superman is just as vulnerable to magic as any other person. This applies equally to spells and to attacks. One category, not two. Any inconsistency between his being hurt less by any magical attack can be explained by inconsistent writing. Oh, and sometimes seems more vulnerable to them “(but still less so than a normal human, Captain Marvel’s lightning would have fried you or I)”. Umm, kryptonain physiology? But really, ordinary people have come through being struck by lighting without being killed. ---
**Author:** ![Menocchio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@Menocchio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Menocchio)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2005, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weekly-comic-book-discussion-8-4-2005/315490/123 "2005-08-10T16:51:22Z")
> [@Scott Plaid](#): > > Hey, you ask me why, I gave you an answer of why people perceive it that way. But still, we are still free to see it that way, a la’: Superman is just as vulnerable to magic as any other person. This applies equally to spells and to attacks. One category, not two. Any inconsistency between his being hurt less by any magical attack can be explained by inconsistent writing. Oh, and sometimes seems more vulnerable to them “(but still less so than a normal human, Captain Marvel’s lightning would have fried you or I)”. Umm, kryptonain physiology? But really, ordinary people have come through being struck by lighting without being killed. Not directly three times, and then still able to get the drop on someone with the “speeed of Mercury”. I don’t buy “Kryptonian Physiology”. Superman without his powers seems strictly human (esoteric weirdness like his DNA being uncloneable unless bond to human DNA aside). Kryptonian physiology doesn’t seem to help him against category 1 magic. I’m not saying that his vulnerability to magic isn’t inconsistently written. In fact, it is so consistently inconsistenly written that I’d go so far as to say that “totally ablated defenses”, “partially ablated defenses” and “all defenses present” all have roughly equal textual support at this point. Heck, the very issue of Wonder Woman that startd this debate has Superman having no problem with Diana’s (a magically animated clay statue) divinely-imbued strength, but being cut, apparently quite badly, by her tiara. Still, none of these gets at my question. Pre-Crisis, had Superman never gotten into a scrap with Wonder Woman? Duelled a thunderbolt-throwing wizard? Travelled back in time and, through a series of hilarious misunderstandings, found himself at the business end of Excalibur? ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2005, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weekly-comic-book-discussion-8-4-2005/315490/124 "2005-08-10T17:02:02Z")
> [@Menocchio](#): > > Still, none of these gets at my question. Ah, I read the question as “Why should people think that vulnerable to magic means vulnerable to magical attacks?” In my mind, that seemed nonsensical. Well then, I recall his being shot with magically-created arrows, and being hurt, but I can not remember when it was, besides the fact it was pre-crisis. (I think) ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2005, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weekly-comic-book-discussion-8-4-2005/315490/125 "2005-08-10T17:15:30Z")
> [@Menocchio](#): > > Still, none of these gets at my question. Pre-Crisis, had Superman never gotten into a scrap with Wonder Woman? Duelled a thunderbolt-throwing wizard? Travelled back in time and, through a series of hilarious misunderstandings, found himself at the business end of Excalibur? No cite, but of course he’s fought Wonder Woman. Too many mind control stories to assume otherwise. I’ll see if I can dig something up. I can confirm that Earth-2’s Superman duelled Captain Marvel, pre-Crisis… ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2005, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weekly-comic-book-discussion-8-4-2005/315490/126 "2005-08-11T14:59:23Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > Well, nothing’s in Marvel canon really. That’s the company who’d whistle innocently while sweeping Ben Reilly’s ashes under the rug, after all. 😃 LOL. Heh, I can’t argue with that! > [@](#): > > JLA/Avengers is good, but it fell into two traps. One, “colossal huge universe-shattering menace” - which, given the two teams involved, was almost unavoidable. Two, “written by committee” - if you have the deluxe edition of JLA/Avengers, they go into the backstory behind the crossover, how it took them more than 20 years to get it going, and all the effort taken to satisfy both Marvel and DC so that neither would pull the plug on the crossover. So it comes out kind of bland. And the inclusion of everyone to ever join either team made for some compressed storytelling in the fourth issue. I’m not sure how they could have avoided that trap. Perhaps if they had just limited it to seven team members each or somesuch? The original crossover had Geoge Perez working on it and it looks fairly similar to what was eventually produced (though he had Thor basically taking Superman out 🙂 I’m not sure how you avoid that trap though. Big team books tend to be written a certain way I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2005, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weekly-comic-book-discussion-8-4-2005/315490/127 "2005-08-25T04:37:50Z")
Sorry for coming back late, but I’m on vacation and this is the first extended access to an internet-connected computer I’ve had since I left. > [@Fenris](#): > > True–but in the blood jewels thing, it wasn’t (IIRC, and it’s gotta be 10 years since I read it so I may not RC 😉 ) the “buried in the earth” thing still fit the earlier “trapped in an enclosed space without air” that they’d used in the fake flashback from Adventure 269-270 AND the actual defeat in 270 (possibly my favorite legion story of all time)–as far as I know, the Earthwar story was only Mordru’s third or fourth appearance. It’s weird, He’s the legion’s best villian (IMO) and he was used so infrequently. I’ll have to check when I get back from vacation and have access to my Legion books again, but I think it was implied (although not stated outright) that the important part wasn’t the burial itself, but the being surrounded on all sides by earth. Although, thinking on it, until I get a chance to do so, I’ll grant that I might be conflating the blood jewels story with Saturn Girl’s explication of Mordru’s psychological block from Earthwar. And even after checking, I’ll happily grant I might be reading more into it than intended (which, if I am, I guess Levitz probably did, as well). Checking [DCUGuide.com](http://DCUGuide.com), Earthwar would be Mordru’s fifth Legion appearance, with a JLA appearance coming between Blood-Crystals and Earthwar. So, while I did misspeak when I said ‘a couple appearances before’ (I hadn’t known about the JLA one until just now), but I guess I was technically right. \>\_\> > [@](#): > > Anyway, Levitz’s error was the “magic dirt” theory–it’s not just being buried without air that does it, it’s some special component of dirt–and that completely contradicts his first defeat where Mon-El and Superboy trap him in an airless vault. Um…without any dirt in sight, thanks. Quite so. It gave me pause in the blood jewels, and a full blown nerd-fit in Earthwar. I’m not quite sure if he’s the one responsible for that oopsie, though. > [@](#): > > Oh well. Earthwar was still a great story (although I remember when it was coming out thinking “Goddamn–this has been going on forever–is it EVER gonna end?” This was just before I started really getting into Marvel. Prior to that, the longest story I remembered was JLA 100-102–a THREE PART adventure! 😃 ). Heh…funny thing about that. I’d just read it for the first time within a week of this conversation starting - after getting well used to the long stories of modern books - and I STILL had that reaction when I was reading Earthwar. ‘Great God in heaven, when will this end???’ I think it was several days straight of reading nothing but Silver Age Legion stories, and getting used to 2 issues being epics, and even full-issue stories being something to advertise on the cover, again, that did it. I did rather like Earthwar up until the reveal of Mordru as the big bad, even with the impatience. I’d have been happier had the Dark Circle really been behind it of their own accord. Still a pretty solid story most of the way through, and even when Mordru unmasked it was still quite readable. Until the mind control and dirtball bits…those made my head hurt. > [@CandidGamera](#): > > I can confirm that Earth-2’s Superman duelled Captain Marvel, pre-Crisis… First use of Shazam’s lightning as an offensive weapon, I believe. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weekly-comic-book-discussion-8-4-2005/315490/128 "2005-09-02T08:54:03Z")
> [@Tengu](#): > > I’ll have to check when I get back from vacation and have access to my Legion books again, but I think it was implied (although not stated outright) that the important part wasn’t the burial itself, but the being surrounded on all sides by earth. Back. Checked. There was a definite emphasis on the underground part in the two mentions: Mordru (After Superboy defeats him at the start of the story): ‘Bah, Superboy remembered that all my magical powers are neutralised if I’m buried underground!’ Superboy (As he throws Chameleon Boy into a pit to snap him out of Mordru’s control): ‘Since Mordru was rendered powerless when plunged underground, the same might apply to his magic!’ This latter line is further evidence that the author (Cary Bates) was under the impression it was the earth that did it, not the burial, per se, I think, since the logic wouldn’t work, if it was, as was the case at first, a matter of his being restrained without air. (Of course, this is a '70s comic book, so logic doesn’t neccessarily apply, and it was never stated it wasn’t that air has some magical property he needs for his magic to function - beyond the obvious cases of his being unable to do anything if he is unconcious. And, of course…‘super-intellect, my ass.’) It’s possible Bates knew Mordru was supposed to be weakened by being confined in an airless space, and the emphasis on being underground was accidental (and the logic blip ignored because it was a comic book), and Levitz jumped to the wrong conclusion, but I’m still betting Bates was the one who messed it up, and Levitz either didn’t know better, or else decided not to correct it. Or else he liked this version better. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weekly-comic-book-discussion-8-4-2005/315490.md?page=6)