# Weird sentence in "The lord of the rings". Copyright trap?? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 6, 2013, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weird-sentence-in-the-lord-of-the-rings-copyright-trap/673240 "2013-11-06T13:59:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weird-sentence-in-the-lord-of-the-rings-copyright-trap/673240/21 "2013-11-06T18:05:59Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > How would this work as a “copyright trap”? If someone is copying the entire book and publishing it, that’s obviously a violation of copyright, whether they include an anomalous line or not. > > The reason a mapmaker might do it is that the arrangement of streets and towns and rivers on planet earth is not copyrightable, so anyone can map the streets and rivers and publish a map, and it will look exactly the same as your map, assuming neither of you made any mistakes. But if you intentionally include mistakes, and the other guy’s map has the same mistakes, then you have pretty good evidence that they copied your map rather than created their own map. > > Obviously this wouldn’t be necessary for things that are copyrightable and under copyright, like a non-public-domain book or fictional map. > [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Just for the record, I’ve spent a lifetime obsessed with books and I’ve never encountered a copyright trap in an ordinary book and never heard of the existence of one. A specialized reference book, maybe, although those are still rare because they cast doubt on the accuracy of everything else in the book. > > If something in a book is weird or garbled, it may be a mistake but it is never a copyright trap. > [@RealityChuck](#): > > Exactly. The only copyright traps I’ve ever heard of was those made by mapmakers, who’d put a fake town in an obscure place to prove a map was copied. > > But on a book, you don’t have to go to any subterfuge. Two maps might look the same, but text is always different in two books. > > And given the publication history of the book, if it _were_ a copyright trap, it failed miserably. Agreed. I don’t see how the concept of a copyright trap can even be applicable to a work of fiction. Copyright traps are based on the premise that there is a reality outside of the work being produced. And writers are supposed to do their own original research from that common reality. But if one writer is worried that other writers may simply copy his results rather than do their own original research, he’ll intentionally add fake results. Then if other writers report the same results, he can point to these fake results as evidence that they copied his work rather than do their own original research. But without a common reality to work with, there’s nothing to conduct original research on. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weird-sentence-in-the-lord-of-the-rings-copyright-trap/673240/22 "2013-11-06T18:28:20Z")
> [@Clark\_Cello](#): > > I believe you may be confusing “puckering” with “plucking”. Sam is not plucking his brow, he is wrinkling them, screwing up his face. I was indeed confusing those words. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weird-sentence-in-the-lord-of-the-rings-copyright-trap/673240/23 "2013-11-06T18:30:12Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Just for the record, I’ve spent a lifetime obsessed with books and I’ve never encountered a copyright trap in an ordinary book and never heard of the existence of one. A specialized reference book, maybe, although those are still rare because they cast doubt on the accuracy of everything else in the book. > > If something in a book is weird or garbled, it may be a mistake but it is never a copyright trap. OK, I guess that answers that. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weird-sentence-in-the-lord-of-the-rings-copyright-trap/673240/24 "2013-11-06T18:46:31Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > Tolkien was a rather clumsy writer, is all. In this case, I would say so. ---
**Author:** ![Airk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de053/32.png) [@Airk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airk)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weird-sentence-in-the-lord-of-the-rings-copyright-trap/673240/25 "2013-11-06T19:21:54Z")
> [@digs](#): > > In this case, I would say so. Speaking as a native English speaker who understands all the words, I don’t see any evidence in this thread for this assertion. It may still be true, but giving a character’s reaction to something being described isn’t what I’d call “clumsy”. ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weird-sentence-in-the-lord-of-the-rings-copyright-trap/673240/26 "2013-11-07T02:05:17Z")
That’s the print series by British publisher Unwin, I think. There was also a typo in the Unwin print of “The Hobbit” when Bilbo was declining Gandalf’s suggestion of going out on an adventure: “I should thing so.” ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weird-sentence-in-the-lord-of-the-rings-copyright-trap/673240/27 "2013-11-07T09:27:42Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Other than the typo, what do you think is weird about it? Puckering your brow makes sense to me. How are you parsing it as a non-native English speaker? But note… The original quotation was “Puckering his brows”. Which makes sense – brows = eyebrows, puckering = bring together, but is not current colloquial English. Your brow is your forehead. I’ve never heard of a person having more than one “brow” So is that a type too? Is it corrected in other editions? ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weird-sentence-in-the-lord-of-the-rings-copyright-trap/673240/28 "2013-11-07T11:03:48Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > But note… The original quotation was “Puckering his brows”. Which makes sense – brows = eyebrows, puckering = bring together, but is not current colloquial English. Your brow is your forehead. I’ve never heard of a person having more than one “brow” > > So is that a type too? Is it corrected in other editions? A thirty-second Google hunt reveals that puckering one’s “_brows_” appears in both Edgar Rice Burroughs’s _Tarzan of the Apes_ (1914), [like so](http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pucker)… > [@](#): > > He puckered his brows into a frown of deep thought. … And in George H. Boker’s _Anne Boleyn: A Tragedy_ (1850), [like so](http://anneboleynnovels.wordpress.com/2013/05/04/anne-boleyn-a-tragedy-by-george-h-boker-1850/)… > [@](#): > > Nay, pucker not your brows, good duke of Richmond ---
**Author:** ![Filbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/filbert/32/3433_2.png) [@Filbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Filbert)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weird-sentence-in-the-lord-of-the-rings-copyright-trap/673240/29 "2013-11-07T18:12:58Z")
> [@Finagle](#): > > For what it’s worth, I’d guess that Sam was looking at the moon and thinking “Time’s awasting. We should probably get this Ring thing finished already.” If I remember correctly, it’s because they’ve just left Lothlorien, and he’s confused because the phase of the moon reveals he’d lost count of the days, indicating they’d been there either no time at all or a full month, both of which seem wrong. Not that I’ve read it too many times or anything… ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim_r.mortiss/32/142_2.png) [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_R.Mortiss)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weird-sentence-in-the-lord-of-the-rings-copyright-trap/673240/30 "2013-11-07T18:48:28Z")
I don’t think it’s clumsy writing at all. Tolkien liked describing nature and landscapes, but he was smart enough to know that readers’ minds can wander if you give too much unattributed description\*. So he anchored his description as an observation of a character, not just the random woolgathering of an author. \*If only Jules Verne had been that smart. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weird-sentence-in-the-lord-of-the-rings-copyright-trap/673240/31 "2013-11-07T18:53:54Z")
To answer a different way. I don’t think ‘copyright trap’ makes sense in this context. The work is copyrighted with or without a clumsy sentence stuck in there. Anyone copying the work would make for an obvious copy whether the sentence was there or not. Copyright trap makes sense for things like maps that are representations of real things. Intentional errors reveal a copy because those errors don’t exist in the real thing. Anyone copying the Lord of the Rings will obviously be copying Lord of the Rings. I don’t see how copyright _trap_ could have any use at all. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weird-sentence-in-the-lord-of-the-rings-copyright-trap/673240/32 "2013-11-07T19:40:47Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Exactly. The only copyright traps I’ve ever heard of was those made by mapmakers, who’d put a fake town in an obscure place to prove a map was copied. > > But on a book, you don’t have to go to any subterfuge. Two maps might look the same, but text is always different in two books. > > And given the publication history of the book, if it _were_ a copyright trap, it failed miserably. You will find copyright traps pretty often in commercial mailing lists. For example, I used to buy mailing lists of radio stations from Broadcasting Magazine, and their address lists included stations with PO box addresses in Washington DC, where they were headquartered. Those stations didn’t exist, as I knew because I also lived there, and the stations were not listed in their almanac of stations either. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weird-sentence-in-the-lord-of-the-rings-copyright-trap/673240/33 "2013-11-07T20:48:28Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > But note… The original quotation was “Puckering his brows”. Which makes sense – brows = eyebrows, puckering = bring together, but is not current colloquial English. Your brow is your forehead. I’ve never heard of a person having more than one “brow” > > So is that a type too? Is it corrected in other editions? “Brow” can sometimes refer to the entire ridge above a person’s eye, of which most people only have one, or it can refer to the eyebrows, in which case two is the more common configuration. ---
**Author:** ![Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8491ac/32.png) [@Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fake_Tales_of_San_Francisco)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weird-sentence-in-the-lord-of-the-rings-copyright-trap/673240/34 "2013-11-07T22:38:14Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Hmmm…Noticing that Gollum is following the party is the main event in this part of the story, so it’s not exactly the same. > > I guess I’ll try to pay attention to random “Theoden brushed his left shoulder” and see if it’s indeed a common occurence. Well, it’s not random in _that_ sense. Tolkien is showing that Sam is worried about something. One assumes he is worried about Gollum. ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weird-sentence-in-the-lord-of-the-rings-copyright-trap/673240/35 "2013-11-07T22:59:26Z")
Sam is worried about _everything_. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weird-sentence-in-the-lord-of-the-rings-copyright-trap/673240/36 "2013-11-07T23:09:14Z")
> [@Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](#): > > Well, it’s not random in _that_ sense. Tolkien is showing that Sam is worried about something. One assumes he is worried about Gollum. No, it is the moon phase, as **Filbert** said, and he brings it up in conversation a day or so later. Someone else can track the quote down, but broadly speaking, he realizes a whole month must have passed while they were in Lothlorien, but he can’t believe the evidence of the skies, because he can remember several days but nothing like a month’s worth, and this leads to a discussion of the sensation of Time in an elven city. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2013, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weird-sentence-in-the-lord-of-the-rings-copyright-trap/673240/37 "2013-11-08T15:26:24Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > “Brow” can sometimes refer to the entire ridge above a person’s eye, of which most people only have one, or it can refer to the eyebrows, in which case two is the more common configuration. Before the movies cast them as youngish supermodel types, I always envisioned Hobbits as having unibrows. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2013, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weird-sentence-in-the-lord-of-the-rings-copyright-trap/673240/38 "2013-11-08T18:30:17Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > “Brow” can sometimes refer to the entire ridge above a person’s eye, of which most people only have one, or it can refer to the eyebrows, in which case two is the more common configuration. [Unibrow song](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Xz8uwcs9hQ). ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2013, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weird-sentence-in-the-lord-of-the-rings-copyright-trap/673240/39 "2013-11-08T20:19:34Z")
> [@fachverwirrt](#): > > Sam is worried about _everything_. Hmm. I don’t remember him worrying if the tops of his feet were furry enough. ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2013, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weird-sentence-in-the-lord-of-the-rings-copyright-trap/673240/40 "2013-11-08T20:59:04Z")
For a discussion about [Moon Phases in The Lord of the Rings](http://shire-reckoning.com/moon.html) we learn that the New Moon of February, S.R. 1419 is problematic: > [@](#): > > We can empathize with Sam and his puckered brows! But while Sam himself is confused because he lost track of time amidst the immortal beauty of Lórien, we are confused because this crescent moon simply should not be visible yet. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weird-sentence-in-the-lord-of-the-rings-copyright-trap/673240.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weird-sentence-in-the-lord-of-the-rings-copyright-trap/673240.md?page=3)