# Weird Wild West Mafia/Werewolf/Psychopath **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [July 30, 2009, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weird-wild-west-mafia-werewolf-psychopath/504801 "2009-07-30T19:03:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 37
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weird-wild-west-mafia-werewolf-psychopath/504801/721 "2009-08-17T01:33:03Z")
> [@AllWalker](#): > > Care to send us a computer analysis of the voting patterns from beyond the bounds of the world? Come on, I’ll pay you $50 of in-game currency. I would take them in Copper, Oredigger would take them in Quarters,.., If I dont simulpost and beat him to it. I tell you Digger, if you guys can get me playing Mafia from Haggle, then we should get some of these guys playing Haggle. ---
**Author:** ![CatInASuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3be4f8/32.png) [@CatInASuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CatInASuit)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weird-wild-west-mafia-werewolf-psychopath/504801/722 "2009-08-17T06:54:38Z")
::wanders up to jukebox:: ::puts on soundtrack for Young Guns 2:: ::runs:: ---
**Author:** ![USCDiver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uscdiver/32/354_2.png) [@USCDiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/USCDiver)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weird-wild-west-mafia-werewolf-psychopath/504801/723 "2009-08-17T11:57:42Z")
_Cock-a-doodle-doo_ ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weird-wild-west-mafia-werewolf-psychopath/504801/724 "2009-08-17T14:00:40Z")
o.O ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weird-wild-west-mafia-werewolf-psychopath/504801/725 "2009-08-17T14:01:09Z")
\*\*The townspeople slept soundly, better than they did the previous night. When they awoke in the morning, dread hit quickly. Would the Crimson Thorns strike again? Who would they kill? As the townspeople stumbled out and began their workday, most quietly searched the area for any bodies or disturbances. None were found, initially. “Hey! What is that???” cried a voice from the edge of town. As the town gathered toward the voice, they saw something that they did not expect. Floating about a foot off the ground was a blackened, charred looking ghost-like figure. Despite its disfiguration, it was clearly MentalGuy’s ghost. She looked up with hatred at the town. “I can’t believe you killed me. I didn’t do anything to indicate who I really was. I stayed quiet and you still killed me! I suppose you judge my choice of work! Some of you were my best clients! Oh well, have fun figuring out what my brethren in the Crimson Thorns are doing now….and what they will do next! We’re planning something……big!” She disappeared. **MentalGuy, who was a Crimson Thorn Prostitute, is 100% dead.** The town turned around, shocked. They looked for another townsperson’s corpse, terrified of what condition it would be in. Oddly, despite the ghosts claims, nothing was to be found. Every townsperson was present and accounted for. It is now Day. Day Three will end Friday, August 21, at Noon Eastern. \*\* ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weird-wild-west-mafia-werewolf-psychopath/504801/726 "2009-08-17T14:03:20Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > \*\* > Oddly, despite the ghosts claims, nothing was to be found. Every townsperson was present and accounted for. > > It is now Day. Day Three will end Friday, August 21, at Noon Eastern. > \*\* \*\*In so many words : No NK? WOO HOO.\*\* Wow. Well, darn, I guess I can’t vote for pede anymore, on grounds of him being the prostitute… ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weird-wild-west-mafia-werewolf-psychopath/504801/727 "2009-08-17T14:23:43Z")
Oredigger, have anything to say about who your slutty ass blocked last night? ---
**Author:** ![AllWalker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/db5fbb/32.png) [@AllWalker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AllWalker)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weird-wild-west-mafia-werewolf-psychopath/504801/728 "2009-08-17T14:52:14Z")
Dead Scum, no NK. That is the best possible outcome. But does this throw **Oredigger** ’s claim into question? In post 640 I raised the possibility: “3) Oredigger is Scum, I am not, and someone on the Scum team slutted it up with yours truly. Oredigger is claiming to cover his arse” Does this seem likely, or could this place have a Slut and a Prostitute? ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weird-wild-west-mafia-werewolf-psychopath/504801/729 "2009-08-17T15:12:09Z")
I wouldn’t be SURPRISED to see a roleblocker on both the town side and the scum side, that was the case in the last game Mahaloth ran. ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weird-wild-west-mafia-werewolf-psychopath/504801/730 "2009-08-17T15:15:55Z")
> [@AllWalker](#): > > Does this seem likely, or could this place have a Slut and a Prostitute? > [@Meeko](#): > > \*\* > > Well, darn, I guess I can’t vote for pede anymore, on grounds of him being the prostitute… I doubt they have three in this place. Oh, and I got to learn to stop moving my votes around. I’m quick to vote and quicker still to move the vote from anyone with a pulse that simply protests. Oh well mental, I did have a vote on you [271] … not when it mattered, but still. ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weird-wild-west-mafia-werewolf-psychopath/504801/731 "2009-08-17T16:44:14Z")
[QUOTE=Oredigger77] I’m not sure if you’re posting our actions of the spoiled board but here is the logic :dubious: behind my actions. Any how since I don’t want to accidentally block a town power role all three of the other claimants are off the table. Since Allwalker confirmed me when it would have been real easy to get me lynched if he was scum I’m also putting him on the no block list. That leaves me with 10 people who are alive and more then likely 4 of them are scum. I think there is probably a town doc but I don’t have a read on who it could be. I think a 40% chance of hitting scum is worth the 10% chance of hitting the doc. I don’t think Joey case was very strong but I think that if I continue to block the number two case each night as long as they are in my unknown pool I should improve my odds of hitting either a scum power role or killer. I’ll sleep with JoeyP [/QUOTE] This was my PM to Maholith last Night. Since there was no kill I’m going to follow that with a vote. **Vote JoeyP** ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weird-wild-west-mafia-werewolf-psychopath/504801/732 "2009-08-17T17:33:58Z")
Boo fucking ya! So let’s move forward. Digger’s information is interesting, I didn’t track anyone last night chosing instead to use a more passive power that I was given so I don’t really have any additional information to add to the party right now. The first thing that springs to mind is that Cat mentioned I had a flaw in my argument, that Mental Guy had a person on his suspicion list that hadn’t gotten much heat up until now. That person was MHaye. Cat was right it was a flaw in my argument, but the suspicion expressed against MHaye was weak…so MHaye is now, in my mind, a person of interest. He only has 20 posts so far, I’ll try to put together a recap. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weird-wild-west-mafia-werewolf-psychopath/504801/733 "2009-08-17T17:37:23Z")
The above is not intended to turn attention away from Joey, but rather to also shine a light on MHaye also. ---
**Author:** ![Natlaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a88e57/32.png) [@Natlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Natlaw)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weird-wild-west-mafia-werewolf-psychopath/504801/734 "2009-08-17T18:00:16Z")
I was reading along but not really looking for scum so to orient myself the known things first (based on posts by **CatInASuit** and **Mahaloth** ). Also in my signature a link to a page with bookmarks for each Dawn and Dusk, etc (not updated yet for Today ;)). **Final Day One Vote Count:** **Freudian** (6): AllWalker, MentalGuy, Storyteller, Boozahol, Pedescribe, USCDiver Boozahol (2): **Freudian** , JoeyP NAF (2): CatinASuit, Oredigger Meeko (2): **Specialed** , Nanook, Tom Scud/Cucuy (1): Zeriel Oredigger (1): NAF Zeriel (1): Tom Scud/Cucuy Pedescribe (1): Meeko, JoeyP (1): MHaye **Final Day Two Vote Count:** **Oredigger** (4): MHaye, CatInASuit, Joey, Pedescribe **MentalGuy** (5): NAF, Zeriel, Oredigger, Cucuy, USCDiver **JoeyP** (3): AllWalker, Meeko, Mentalguy **Alive:** Zeriel Storyteller [del]Tom Scud[/del] cucuy - Claims investigator, 25% chance to fail Nanook of the North Shore [del]Alka Seltzer[/del] USCDiver MHaye [del]Ro0sh[/del] Natlaw Pedescribe NAF 1138 - Claims inventor - can track, can stop lynch, can use ‘passive power’ Meeko - Claims vanilla JoeyP AllWalker Oredigger - Claims role blocker “Town Slut” Boozahol Squid, P.I. - Claims one shot vigilante, 25% chance to publicly fail “Wimpy Sheriff” CatInASuit **Dead:** **Freudian Slit** : Ordinary Townsperson - Lynched D1 **Special Ed** : Ordinary Townsperson - Killed N1 **MentalGuy** : Crimson Thorn Prostitute - Lynched D2 **Claims:** NAF claims Boozahol did nothing N1 cucuy investigated Boozahol and found out who he is (presumably his claimed role) Oredigger blocked Allwalker N1: “an oddly wonderful night” Allwaker got “You had a wonderful Night of passion. You won’t forget that any time soon!” N1 There was no kill N2 NAF claims to have used a passive power N2 Oredigger claims to have blocked JoeyP N2 Corrections welcome. ---
**Author:** ![Natlaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a88e57/32.png) [@Natlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Natlaw)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weird-wild-west-mafia-werewolf-psychopath/504801/735 "2009-08-17T18:10:03Z")
And after the facts, the suspicions: > [@Oredigger77](#): > > This was my PM [edit: sleep with JoeyP] to Maholith last Night. Since there was no kill I’m going to follow that with a vote. > > **Vote JoeyP** So we have a claimed investigator as an high priority target (for kill and protect), you acknowledge the possibility of a doctor (but not as reason for the no kill last Night) and you think the case against **JoeyP** is weak but vote him anyway? It seems like a bit rushed conclusion, especially since we might also get a result from **cucuy** in. Looking at the votes: known Crimson Thorn **MentalGuy** voted JoeyP over you. On the other hand, you voted for MentalGuy. I’m going to have to looking at the vote order again to get a better picture. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weird-wild-west-mafia-werewolf-psychopath/504801/736 "2009-08-17T18:21:05Z")
First game related posts is his traditional don’t hold a grudge post. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11405826&postcount=131](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11405826&postcount=131) > [@](#): > > _Sigh_ I borked the list tags in my last post. Never mind. > > Remember folks, Grudges Are Bad. > > If you go and lead a lynch drive against someone who psyched you out in a past game, even (or should that be especially) a two-year-old game (cough cough) then you could be harming your own side for the sake of getting your own back. (Of course, if you know your revenge target is not on your side, feel free to knock yourself out going for the jugular.) > > Remember, this is a team game. You should be willing to subordinate your own impulses if it helps your side win. > > Here endeth my usual rant. _Sigh_ I borked the list tags in my last post. Never mind. > > Remember folks, Grudges Are Bad. > > If you go and lead a lynch drive against someone who psyched you out in a past game, even (or should that be especially) a two-year-old game (cough cough) then you could be harming your own side for the sake of getting your own back. (Of course, if you know your revenge target is not on your side, feel free to knock yourself out going for the jugular.) > > Remember, this is a team game. You should be willing to subordinate your own impulses if it helps your side win. > > Here endeth my usual rant. Then he answers some questions for newer players [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11407526&postcount=162](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11407526&postcount=162) > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by Alka Seltzer > Isn’t the scum board off site? > Yes. That doesn’t mean that someone won’t make that mistake. > > “It’s so unlikely” is not a defence, because I’ve seen it done. Twice. > > On preview : FS, it looks like BS PI is voting for Tom because Tom’s suggestion that the Crimson Thorn may have supernatural powers smacks of PIS1. > > I’ll confess that my first thought was “Deadlands?” but that’s because I’ve played the game a few times. > > 1PIS : Perfect Information Syndrome He talks about the vig options [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11414256&postcount=272](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11414256&postcount=272) > [@](#): > > I’m going to add my opinion on the Vig discussion, since it hasn’t happened yet. > > I refuse to tell any hypothetical Vigilante who to attack, and I urge them to make their own minds up about the use of their powers. You may or may not want to consider other player’s opinions - that’s up to you. But ultimately no-one but you has any degree of control over what gets sent to the Moderator. So the responsibility is on your shoulders. > > Of course, sneaking around and killing people is fun - it gives you direct influence on the game. And it can be very satisfying, especially when you ID a Horseman of the Apocalypse and disembowel him. > > We’re in the business of trading space for time; in this case yielding some casualties while gaining the information to ID and lynch the Crimson Thorn. Each two kills the Vig makes costs us one Day of discussion, while maximising the information yield. If you’re out there, think about that - the information the early deaths give us are not without cost. > > If you are a compulsory Vig, I implore you - never, never admit it. So far it’s all fairly boilerplate stuff. Things I would expect to hear from MHaye in any game regardless of alignment. He asks Meeko to keep his posts short so they are easier to follow [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11414265&postcount=273](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11414265&postcount=273) > [@](#): > > Meeko. > > Speaking personally, I keep posts between one and 1½ pages of A4 using 12-point type (I draft most posts on a word processor and then copy & paste). I do this because long posts get hard to follow and dissect. > > Keep them short please? He has no suspicions as of yet, but that’s normal for him. Notable in this post is his feeling that Tom has been falsely accused. It’s the first time he takes any sort of stand in the game. Quote: Originally Posted by Alka Seltzer @MHaye - do you have any suspicions at this time? No, but then at this stage in the game I seldom do. It’s probably worth stating, for those people I’ve not played Mafia with before, that I am not one of those people who consider votes as free. “Vote early, vote often” is not a philosophy I subscribe to. Instead, I subscribe to a policy of “votes are significant, so place them when you have at least two pointers of guilt.” If it gets close to end of Day and I still don’t have enough, then I’ll follow what I think of as the strongest reed. I find myself in agreement with Storyteller on a couple of points. One of those is Ties Are Bad. If possible, avoid them, especially if the GO promises random mayhem in the event of a tie. Thus, one of my voting determinants may well be voting to break a tie, rather than the person I am most suspicious of. If that is the case, I will say so. Unless plans change, I should be online at Day’s end. However, because it’s 5pm, I won’t have more than an hour or two after closing the jobhunting books. Another reason I’m slow is that I need to read the thread at least twice to get any handle on it, and so far Second Read has not even been started. My gut call is that Tom has been a bit maligned, and people are misinterpreting post 157. I’m not sure whether this is just overeager Townie-ism or Crimson Thorn trying to push a case; probably the former; certainly I doubt that all three of those that voted Tom are Thorn. It’s one of the issues I’ll be trying to answer in Second Read. More later. > [@](#): > > Quote: > Originally Posted by Alka Seltzer > @MHaye - do you have any suspicions at this time? > No, but then at this stage in the game I seldom do. It’s probably worth stating, for those people I’ve not played Mafia with before, that I am not one of those people who consider votes as free. “Vote early, vote often” is not a philosophy I subscribe to. Instead, I subscribe to a policy of “votes are significant, so place them when you have at least two pointers of guilt.” > > If it gets close to end of Day and I still don’t have enough, then I’ll follow what I think of as the strongest reed. > > I find myself in agreement with Storyteller on a couple of points. One of those is Ties Are Bad. If possible, avoid them, especially if the GO promises random mayhem in the event of a tie. Thus, one of my voting determinants may well be voting to break a tie, rather than the person I am most suspicious of. If that is the case, I will say so. > > Unless plans change, I should be online at Day’s end. However, because it’s 5pm, I won’t have more than an hour or two after closing the jobhunting books. > > Another reason I’m slow is that I need to read the thread at least twice to get any handle on it, and so far Second Read has not even been started. > > My gut call is that Tom has been a bit maligned, and people are misinterpreting post 157. I’m not sure whether this is just overeager Townie-ism or Crimson Thorn trying to push a case; probably the former; certainly I doubt that all three of those that voted Tom are Thorn. It’s one of the issues I’ll be trying to answer in Second Read. > > More later. He will vote but he doesn’t have as much time as he would like [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11420350&postcount=430](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11420350&postcount=430) > [@](#): > > Noon? That doesn’t leave me much time, as I have an appointment that requires I leave the house in an hour. > > I’ll fit a vote in, but it will be tighter than I wanted it to be. Blame the nasty British weather that washed out yesterday afternoon and evening. (It was well over 30 Celsius here - nearly 90 Fahrenheit - and hot weather wreaks havoc on my ability to concentrate.) His case against Joey P. I’m running late. The thing that has pinged me most in the reread I’ve just done is Joey P’s vote of BS PI in post 166. Particularly, I didn’t like his first stated reason. Quote: 1)Voting Tom Scud for no reason. Or at least not giving a reason until asked for it. I’ve seen that as a scum move in the past. Scum votes town with no reason, then waits to get called on it. If enough time has passed, they can create their reasons based on what others have said since their vote. What got me about it was that, while it is indeed a reasonable general principle, in this specific case it was not applicable. The reason it was not applicable is that BS PI had already given a reason, and had done so only six minutes and two posts after he placed the vote. Let’s look for ourselves. (All times BST). 159 on 03/08/09, 11:52pm. BS PI votes. 160 on 03/08/09 at 11:54pm. FS votes BS PI and demands explanation. 161 on 03/08/09 at 11:58pm. BS PI explains vote. So much for that justification in this particular case. Maybe BS PI should have put his explanation into his vote post. But the speed with which he produced it makes it quite clear that he’d had it in mind when voting. This shows up your attack as a smudge. Quite a good one too; you take a general Mafia principle and twist it into an attack. When you wrote 166, you knew, or should have known, that BS PI had responded to the challenge almost immediately. I have not seen you acknowledge that in my reread. Even your vote switch was not motivated by another suspicion, and you returned to BS PI later. Vote Joey P. I want my suspicion on record. > [@](#): > > I’m running late. > > The thing that has pinged me most in the reread I’ve just done is Joey P’s vote of BS PI in post 166. Particularly, I didn’t like his first stated reason. > Quote: > 1)Voting Tom Scud for no reason. Or at least not giving a reason until asked for it. I’ve seen that as a scum move in the past. Scum votes town with no reason, then waits to get called on it. If enough time has passed, they can create their reasons based on what others have said since their vote. > What got me about it was that, while it is indeed a reasonable general principle, in this specific case it was not applicable. > > The reason it was not applicable is that BS PI had already given a reason, and had done so only six minutes and two posts after he placed the vote. Let’s look for ourselves. > > (All times BST). > > 159 on 03/08/09, 11:52pm. BS PI votes. > 160 on 03/08/09 at 11:54pm. FS votes BS PI and demands explanation. > 161 on 03/08/09 at 11:58pm. BS PI explains vote. > > So much for that justification in this particular case. > > Maybe BS PI should have put his explanation into his vote post. But the speed with which he produced it makes it quite clear that he’d had it in mind when voting. This shows up your attack as a smudge. Quite a good one too; you take a general Mafia principle and twist it into an attack. > > When you wrote 166, you knew, or should have known, that BS PI had responded to the challenge almost immediately. I have not seen you acknowledge that in my reread. Even your vote switch was not motivated by another suspicion, and you returned to BS PI later. > > Vote Joey P. > > I want my suspicion on record. Question for the crowd (yes I am asking people to look stuff up for me, I think it’s good for you and for me) was there a case against Joey of any kind before MHaye made this post? And that’s MHaye for Day 1. Skipping the Night post and moving on to Day 2 He says he needs to get his head in the game. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11442306&postcount=656](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11442306&postcount=656) > [@](#): > > My time management has been shot to pieces today (and Today). My apologies. I need to get my head back in the game. > > I even managed to forget Dawn in another game until it happened, and I’m supposed to be colour-writing and stuff. That’s never happened before > > More later. Recap of suspicions. He isn’t a fan of MentalGuy’s vote switch and is also suspicious of Joey. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11443966&postcount=662](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11443966&postcount=662) > [@](#): > > Catching up with the overnight action, such as it was, MentalGuy’s vote switch twanged me just a little bit. > > Why? Because he doesn’t mention its self-preservation aspect. Before the switch, he was in a three way tie. Now, he’s not. It’s just a little thing, enough to make me stop and look harder at him later (I have an appointment in 80 minutes or so). > > I’m still suspicious of JoeyP (who I voted for Yesterday), although I still need to reread about 3 pages of posts, so I’m reserving judgement on him until I do so. > > The other person who has twanged my alarm bells is Oredigger. If his claim is true, he’s a Town-aligned role with an effect that, if used at random, is anti-Town. So why use it? The probable answer is that he’s lying about his alignment - that is, he’s possibly Crimson Thorn (or even third party) and not Town at all. > > That’s enough waffle based on a single read of the Day. Back later to finish and vote. Here things get strange. He votes for Oredigger, a claimed town power role, instead of voting for Joey who is the person he is leaning towards as scum for most of the game, or MentalGuy who just did something he finds suspicious. Because Digger created a temporary tie. (Did Digger actually create a tie? I need to check, this is more a note to myself than anything else, but if someone wants to check for me that’s great too.) [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11444473&postcount=669](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11444473&postcount=669) > [@](#): > > Back in post 3, Mahaloth told us > Quote: > Each Day, the players in the game will vote to lynch/kill one person. Whomever receives the most votes dies and is out of the game. If it is a tie…..you’ll see. > I’m sorry, but if you don’t know what a tie will do, it is never a pro-town action to create one. (If you do know the result of a tie, then you can make an accurate assessment, and deal with the consequences. > > That makes me more suspicious of him. I’m going to place a vote on him to register that, and go and study the Day again to see if anything else stands out. > > Vote Oredigger > > This isn’t to say I can’t support a lynch of Joey. I can, but I want my disapproval of Oredigger’s actions on record. He agree’s with CIAS’s post count of JoeyP (4) MentalGuy (3), Digger (2) [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11444516&postcount=674](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11444516&postcount=674) > [@](#): > > As do I. > > I still plan to watch for a tie-creating vote though, as I don’t want a tie as a matter of policy. He disagrees with Pede’s count [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11444543&postcount=676](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11444543&postcount=676) > [@](#): > > Quote: > Originally Posted by pedescribe > I think we’re good: by my count it’s > Oredigger (4) > Joey (3) > Mentalguy (3) > One of us is out; CIAS and I make it 4-3-2. Support for his case against Joey, who, let us remember, he is not voting for. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11444629&postcount=680](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11444629&postcount=680) > [@](#): > > Joey said, in 620 : > Quote: > Originally Posted by Joey P > I don’t know why I have to keep explaining this\* Booze DID NOT JUSTIFY HIS VOTE UNTIL ASKED. I don’t see why it makes a difference if it was 6 minutes or 2 Days, he had to be asked to do it. As I’ve said before, I’ve seen that as a scum move. > You have to keep justifying it because you miss the point of the accusation (at least as far as I’m concerned. > > BS PI was asked for the justification, and answered it, a full seventy-five minutes before Joey chimed in and accused him of not justifying his vote so that he could wait until after he saw other people’s reactions before trotting out his reasons. > > In other words Joey accused BS PI of doing something that he knew, or should have known, BS PI did not do. Taking a sound principle and using it as the basis for an attack in a case where it is not applicable is something that the Crimson Thorn would want to do, since it seems a solid ground on which to build a case, if one can only fudge over the fact that the accusation has already been shown to be groundless. > > That was the basis for my Day 1 vote for Joey, and I have not seen it explained. > > Cucuy’s vote created a tie between Joey and MentalGuy. If necessary, I will switch my vote to Joey to break ties, but not until a bit closer to the deadline. After being told that switching to vote for Joey would “condem MentalGuy” by Pedescribe as well as creating another tie he decides to leave his vote on Digger because “I really hate ties.” He says he might abstain from voting altogether but does not. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11444696&postcount=684](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11444696&postcount=684) Remember, Digger isn’t even the person he finds most suspicious. > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by pedescribe > The tie is between Digger and Mental. If you switch to Joey, it’ll condemn Mental > _bh_ > > I managed to miss 672 and 673. Won’t happen again, as I’ve switched to instant alerts. > > As noted, that would change who is tied. I might have to abstain in that case, as I really disapprove of ties. > > 10 minutes to decide. More thoughts in a bit. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weird-wild-west-mafia-werewolf-psychopath/504801/737 "2009-08-17T18:22:07Z")
Crap, I hit post quick reply instead of go advanced. Give me a second to clean some of that up and I will make it readable. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weird-wild-west-mafia-werewolf-psychopath/504801/738 "2009-08-17T18:25:07Z")
First game related posts is his traditional don’t hold a grudge post. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11405826&postcount=131](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11405826&postcount=131) > [@](#): > > _Sigh_ I borked the list tags in my last post. Never mind. > > Remember folks, Grudges Are Bad. > > If you go and lead a lynch drive against someone who psyched you out in a past game, even (or should that be especially) a two-year-old game (cough cough) then you could be harming your own side for the sake of getting your own back. (Of course, if you know your revenge target is not on your side, feel free to knock yourself out going for the jugular.) > > Remember, this is a team game. You should be willing to subordinate your own impulses if it helps your side win. > > Here endeth my usual rant. _Sigh_ I borked the list tags in my last post. Never mind. > > Remember folks, Grudges Are Bad. > > If you go and lead a lynch drive against someone who psyched you out in a past game, even (or should that be especially) a two-year-old game (cough cough) then you could be harming your own side for the sake of getting your own back. (Of course, if you know your revenge target is not on your side, feel free to knock yourself out going for the jugular.) > > Remember, this is a team game. You should be willing to subordinate your own impulses if it helps your side win. > > Here endeth my usual rant. Then he answers some questions for newer players [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11407526&postcount=162](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11407526&postcount=162) > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by Alka Seltzer > Isn’t the scum board off site? > Yes. That doesn’t mean that someone won’t make that mistake. > > “It’s so unlikely” is not a defence, because I’ve seen it done. Twice. > > On preview : FS, it looks like BS PI is voting for Tom because Tom’s suggestion that the Crimson Thorn may have supernatural powers smacks of PIS1. > > I’ll confess that my first thought was “Deadlands?” but that’s because I’ve played the game a few times. > > 1PIS : Perfect Information Syndrome He talks about the vig options [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11414256&postcount=272](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11414256&postcount=272) > [@](#): > > I’m going to add my opinion on the Vig discussion, since it hasn’t happened yet. > > I refuse to tell any hypothetical Vigilante who to attack, and I urge them to make their own minds up about the use of their powers. You may or may not want to consider other player’s opinions - that’s up to you. But ultimately no-one but you has any degree of control over what gets sent to the Moderator. So the responsibility is on your shoulders. > > Of course, sneaking around and killing people is fun - it gives you direct influence on the game. And it can be very satisfying, especially when you ID a Horseman of the Apocalypse and disembowel him. > > We’re in the business of trading space for time; in this case yielding some casualties while gaining the information to ID and lynch the Crimson Thorn. Each two kills the Vig makes costs us one Day of discussion, while maximising the information yield. If you’re out there, think about that - the information the early deaths give us are not without cost. > > If you are a compulsory Vig, I implore you - never, never admit it. So far it’s all fairly boilerplate stuff. Things I would expect to hear from MHaye in any game regardless of alignment. He asks Meeko to keep his posts short so they are easier to follow [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11414265&postcount=273](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11414265&postcount=273) > [@](#): > > Meeko. > > Speaking personally, I keep posts between one and 1½ pages of A4 using 12-point type (I draft most posts on a word processor and then copy & paste). I do this because long posts get hard to follow and dissect. > > Keep them short please? He has no suspicions as of yet, but that’s normal for him. Notable in this post is his feeling that Tom has been falsely accused. It’s the first time he takes any sort of stand in the game. > [@](#): > > Quote: > Originally Posted by Alka Seltzer > @MHaye - do you have any suspicions at this time? > No, but then at this stage in the game I seldom do. It’s probably worth stating, for those people I’ve not played Mafia with before, that I am not one of those people who consider votes as free. “Vote early, vote often” is not a philosophy I subscribe to. Instead, I subscribe to a policy of “votes are significant, so place them when you have at least two pointers of guilt.” > > If it gets close to end of Day and I still don’t have enough, then I’ll follow what I think of as the strongest reed. > > I find myself in agreement with Storyteller on a couple of points. One of those is Ties Are Bad. If possible, avoid them, especially if the GO promises random mayhem in the event of a tie. Thus, one of my voting determinants may well be voting to break a tie, rather than the person I am most suspicious of. If that is the case, I will say so. > > Unless plans change, I should be online at Day’s end. However, because it’s 5pm, I won’t have more than an hour or two after closing the jobhunting books. > > Another reason I’m slow is that I need to read the thread at least twice to get any handle on it, and so far Second Read has not even been started. > > My gut call is that Tom has been a bit maligned, and people are misinterpreting post 157. I’m not sure whether this is just overeager Townie-ism or Crimson Thorn trying to push a case; probably the former; certainly I doubt that all three of those that voted Tom are Thorn. It’s one of the issues I’ll be trying to answer in Second Read. > > More later. He will vote but he doesn’t have as much time as he would like [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11420350&postcount=430](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11420350&postcount=430) > [@](#): > > Noon? That doesn’t leave me much time, as I have an appointment that requires I leave the house in an hour. > > I’ll fit a vote in, but it will be tighter than I wanted it to be. Blame the nasty British weather that washed out yesterday afternoon and evening. (It was well over 30 Celsius here - nearly 90 Fahrenheit - and hot weather wreaks havoc on my ability to concentrate.) His case against Joey P. > [@](#): > > I’m running late. > > The thing that has pinged me most in the reread I’ve just done is Joey P’s vote of BS PI in post 166. Particularly, I didn’t like his first stated reason. > Quote: > 1)Voting Tom Scud for no reason. Or at least not giving a reason until asked for it. I’ve seen that as a scum move in the past. Scum votes town with no reason, then waits to get called on it. If enough time has passed, they can create their reasons based on what others have said since their vote. > What got me about it was that, while it is indeed a reasonable general principle, in this specific case it was not applicable. > > The reason it was not applicable is that BS PI had already given a reason, and had done so only six minutes and two posts after he placed the vote. Let’s look for ourselves. > > (All times BST). > > 159 on 03/08/09, 11:52pm. BS PI votes. > 160 on 03/08/09 at 11:54pm. FS votes BS PI and demands explanation. > 161 on 03/08/09 at 11:58pm. BS PI explains vote. > > So much for that justification in this particular case. > > Maybe BS PI should have put his explanation into his vote post. But the speed with which he produced it makes it quite clear that he’d had it in mind when voting. This shows up your attack as a smudge. Quite a good one too; you take a general Mafia principle and twist it into an attack. > > When you wrote 166, you knew, or should have known, that BS PI had responded to the challenge almost immediately. I have not seen you acknowledge that in my reread. Even your vote switch was not motivated by another suspicion, and you returned to BS PI later. > > Vote Joey P. > > I want my suspicion on record. Question for the crowd (yes I am asking people to look stuff up for me, I think it’s good for you and for me) was there a case against Joey of any kind before MHaye made this post? And that’s MHaye for Day 1. Skipping the Night post and moving on to Day 2 He says he needs to get his head in the game. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11442306&postcount=656](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11442306&postcount=656) > [@](#): > > My time management has been shot to pieces today (and Today). My apologies. I need to get my head back in the game. > > I even managed to forget Dawn in another game until it happened, and I’m supposed to be colour-writing and stuff. That’s never happened before > > More later. Recap of suspicions. He isn’t a fan of MentalGuy’s vote switch and is also suspicious of Joey. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11443966&postcount=662](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11443966&postcount=662) > [@](#): > > Catching up with the overnight action, such as it was, MentalGuy’s vote switch twanged me just a little bit. > > Why? Because he doesn’t mention its self-preservation aspect. Before the switch, he was in a three way tie. Now, he’s not. It’s just a little thing, enough to make me stop and look harder at him later (I have an appointment in 80 minutes or so). > > I’m still suspicious of JoeyP (who I voted for Yesterday), although I still need to reread about 3 pages of posts, so I’m reserving judgement on him until I do so. > > The other person who has twanged my alarm bells is Oredigger. If his claim is true, he’s a Town-aligned role with an effect that, if used at random, is anti-Town. So why use it? The probable answer is that he’s lying about his alignment - that is, he’s possibly Crimson Thorn (or even third party) and not Town at all. > > That’s enough waffle based on a single read of the Day. Back later to finish and vote. Here things get strange. He votes for Oredigger, a claimed town power role, instead of voting for Joey who is the person he is leaning towards as scum for most of the game, or MentalGuy who just did something he finds suspicious. Because Digger created a temporary tie. (Did Digger actually create a tie? I need to check, this is more a note to myself than anything else, but if someone wants to check for me that’s great too.) [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11444473&postcount=669](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11444473&postcount=669) > [@](#): > > Back in post 3, Mahaloth told us > Quote: > Each Day, the players in the game will vote to lynch/kill one person. Whomever receives the most votes dies and is out of the game. If it is a tie…..you’ll see. > I’m sorry, but if you don’t know what a tie will do, it is never a pro-town action to create one. (If you do know the result of a tie, then you can make an accurate assessment, and deal with the consequences. > > That makes me more suspicious of him. I’m going to place a vote on him to register that, and go and study the Day again to see if anything else stands out. > > Vote Oredigger > > This isn’t to say I can’t support a lynch of Joey. I can, but I want my disapproval of Oredigger’s actions on record. He agree’s with CIAS’s post count of JoeyP (4) MentalGuy (3), Digger (2) [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11444516&postcount=674](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11444516&postcount=674) > [@](#): > > As do I. > > I still plan to watch for a tie-creating vote though, as I don’t want a tie as a matter of policy. He disagrees with Pede’s count [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11444543&postcount=676](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11444543&postcount=676) > [@](#): > > Quote: > Originally Posted by pedescribe > I think we’re good: by my count it’s > Oredigger (4) > Joey (3) > Mentalguy (3) > One of us is out; CIAS and I make it 4-3-2. Support for his case against Joey, who, let us remember, he is not voting for. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11444629&postcount=680](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11444629&postcount=680) > [@](#): > > Joey said, in 620 : > Quote: > Originally Posted by Joey P > I don’t know why I have to keep explaining this\* Booze DID NOT JUSTIFY HIS VOTE UNTIL ASKED. I don’t see why it makes a difference if it was 6 minutes or 2 Days, he had to be asked to do it. As I’ve said before, I’ve seen that as a scum move. > You have to keep justifying it because you miss the point of the accusation (at least as far as I’m concerned. > > BS PI was asked for the justification, and answered it, a full seventy-five minutes before Joey chimed in and accused him of not justifying his vote so that he could wait until after he saw other people’s reactions before trotting out his reasons. > > In other words Joey accused BS PI of doing something that he knew, or should have known, BS PI did not do. Taking a sound principle and using it as the basis for an attack in a case where it is not applicable is something that the Crimson Thorn would want to do, since it seems a solid ground on which to build a case, if one can only fudge over the fact that the accusation has already been shown to be groundless. > > That was the basis for my Day 1 vote for Joey, and I have not seen it explained. > > Cucuy’s vote created a tie between Joey and MentalGuy. If necessary, I will switch my vote to Joey to break ties, but not until a bit closer to the deadline. After being told that switching to vote for Joey would “condem MentalGuy” by Pedescribe as well as creating another tie he decides to leave his vote on Digger because “I really hate ties.” He says he might abstain from voting altogether but does not. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11444696&postcount=684](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11444696&postcount=684) Remember, Digger isn’t even the person he finds most suspicious. > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by pedescribe > The tie is between Digger and Mental. If you switch to Joey, it’ll condemn Mental > _bh_ > > I managed to miss 672 and 673. Won’t happen again, as I’ve switched to instant alerts. > > As noted, that would change who is tied. I might have to abstain in that case, as I really disapprove of ties. > > 10 minutes to decide. More thoughts in a bit. ---
**Author:** ![Natlaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a88e57/32.png) [@Natlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Natlaw)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weird-wild-west-mafia-werewolf-psychopath/504801/739 "2009-08-17T18:26:00Z")
Addition on the facts: **Day One No Vote** (1): [del]Ro0sh[/del] Natlaw **Day Two No Vote** (4): Storyteller, Nanook, [del]Ro0sh[/del] Natlaw, Boozahol * * * More speculations for the no kill besides role block and protect could be that Crimson Thorns have a recruit or perhaps a poisoning (“We’re planning something……big!”) - but I think they are not as likely (or standard). I was a scum poisoner (target died the next Dusk instead of at Night) in Dr. Horrible so it’s not unheard of. And in the trend of killing with a twist: the no-death-reveal-until-lynch could also be a scum power instead of just a game mechanic. Since there are claimed town powers, it works against town who have less information to act on because of it. I’m pretty sure someone mentioned this already somewhere Day Two though. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weird-wild-west-mafia-werewolf-psychopath/504801/740 "2009-08-17T18:29:27Z")
My general thoughts are, it really looks like he doesn’t want MentalGuy lynched on Day 2, and other than that he didn’t participate in the game much. The low participation is sort of standard MHaye, a lot of what he posted is very typical for him. But his high participation at the end of the Day, pushing for the lynch of a claimed power role and his never stated but obvious from the post record anti Mental Guy stance makes him look bad. Couple that with MentalGuy’s mention of him in the list…I don’t like it. I need to find out about the status of Ordiggers vote (did Digger really create a tie? I don’t remember? How was that justified?) The case against Joey before and after MHaye talked about him, and I want to see who asked Digger if he was a slut or a prostitue. Once I have the answer to those three question I should have a vote. For now let’s hang a big old FOS on MHaye. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weird-wild-west-mafia-werewolf-psychopath/504801.md?page=36) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weird-wild-west-mafia-werewolf-psychopath/504801.md?page=38)