# Weirdly mixed feelings about Otto Warmbier (American student sentenced to 15 years in N Korea) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 16, 2016, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206 "2016-03-16T19:43:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/41 "2016-03-17T16:35:10Z")
Related thread [Why is North Korea so utterly irresistible to proselytizing Christians?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=730293) > [@](#): > > Otto Warmbier was arrested as he attempted to leave the country in January and later made a televised “confession” saying that he had taken the sign to bring back a “trophy”. > > North Korean state news agency KCNA said the 21-year-old’s offence was “pursuant to the US government’s hostile policy” and that he was convicted under an article of the criminal code dealing with subversion. > > The University of Virginia student who had visited the isolated state as a tourist, had said during his confession that he had tried to steal the banner for an acquaintance who wanted to hang it in her church. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/42 "2016-03-17T16:40:14Z")
> [@Mops](#): > > I don’t understand the censure for Warmbier. For one thing curiosity how people in places like North Korea live is a _good thing_ and more people should be on trips like these. No, they shouldn’t. The North Korean government isn’t going to let you see how their victims live, so all you’re doing is giving North Korea the opportunity to use your presence for their own advantage. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/43 "2016-03-17T16:53:25Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > No, they shouldn’t. The North Korean government isn’t going to let you see how their victims live, so all you’re doing is giving North Korea the opportunity to use your presence for their own advantage. Well put. I’ve read about 6 books about NK. So I suppose yes, I am curious. But because of what I have already learned, there is no way in hell I would ever set foot in that country. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/44 "2016-03-17T16:55:53Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > No, they shouldn’t. The North Korean government isn’t going to let you see how their victims live, so all you’re doing is giving North Korea the opportunity to use your presence for their own advantage. Yeah, you are definitely not going to be allowed to go anywhere the regime doesn’t want you to go, and you are definitely not going to see how the majority of North Koreans live. And the money you spend there just helps lil’ Kimmy, V3.1 and his merry men continue their nutty, repressive regime. If you want to see how Koreans SHOULD live, go and spend your money in South Korea…there are tons of cool places to go see and experience. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/45 "2016-03-17T17:13:36Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > I’d probably be arrested for refusing to bow to the Kim statues. > > Read something on that the other day. Tour group hits the big war memorial with statues of the Kims. Tour guide tells group that North Korea defeated America all on it’s own with no help from anyone. (Ha!) Then asks “Who here is an American? Go pick up the flowers, take them to the monument and bow.” I’d be summarily shot as I urinated on it. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/46 "2016-03-17T17:44:20Z")
For what it’s worth, I know of no news or investigative source having corroborated the existence of his supposed acquaintance or her supposed church. Until some shred of evidence emerges, my assumption is that the charge against him was wholly manufactured for some political purpose. NoKo has been issuing various inflammatory pronouncements lately, so they definitely seem to want our attention for some reason. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/47 "2016-03-17T17:57:26Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > I’d probably be arrested for refusing to bow to the Kim statues. > > Read something on that the other day. Tour group hits the big war memorial with statues of the Kims. Tour guide tells group that North Korea defeated America all on it’s own with no help from anyone. (Ha!) Then asks “Who here is an American? Go pick up the flowers, take them to the monument and bow.” I’m guessing they wouldn’t like it if I drop trou and turn around before bowing. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/48 "2016-03-17T18:02:13Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I’m guessing they wouldn’t like it if I drop trou and turn around before bowing. > > Regards, > Shodan They’d probably save money and use the same anti-aircraft gun on us both. This forum requires that you wait 60 seconds between posts. Please try again in 1 seconds. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/49 "2016-03-17T19:35:28Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Are foreigners required to bow? > **[What can tourists expect when visiting North Korea? | CNN](https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/north-korea-tourist-protocol/index.html)** > > When you sign up to visit the DPRK you have to play by their rules. f you don’t want to bow, stay home A key aspect of any trip to North Korea is the need to show reverence for past and present leaders. This means not only referring to them with respect, but also bowing in front of the statues of Kim Il Sung and Kim Jong Il. Pyongyang has a number of statues, so this can mean laying flowers and bowing several times on a week-long trip. For those traveling around the country, there’s a Kim Il Sung statue in every city. Koryo Tours, the longest running and most specialized travel company for the DPRK, advises tourists in their briefing notes that they will be expected to bow in front of the statues and warns: “If you are not willing to behave at some points as expected by the local customs then we recommend you do not visit the DPRK, the potential for offense to be taken by the hosts which then adversely affects the tour is too great.” German tourist Seidel didn’t enjoy the obligatory bowing but understood that it was a necessary part of being allowed to visit. “I felt like an atheist during Holy Mass – I couldn’t relate, but I played along to avoid offending anybody,” he says. ---
**Author:** ![HubZilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ccd318/32.png) [@HubZilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HubZilla)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/50 "2016-03-17T21:09:39Z")
I agree with this. I’m a guest of their country and should politely follow their customs. Otherwise, don’t go. Plus, I’m sure the poor tour guide would bear the brunt of the punishment if a tourist decided to make a scene. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2016, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/51 "2016-03-18T01:58:28Z")
> [@HubZilla](#): > > Plus, I’m sure the poor tour guide would bear the brunt of the punishment if a tourist decided to make a scene. You are correct, it would be three for the anit-aircraft gun. It is a bit much, insisting that visiting Americans go Jane Fonda. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2016, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/52 "2016-03-18T02:22:53Z")
No mixed thoughts on this one. The guy is a cry baby little thief. He is no more a victim than the kid who was caned in Singapore for vandalism. He is probably a spoiled, self-entitled little brat. Mommy can’t fix this one with a call to the teacher. He will have a couple months to let this lesson sink in. He will be released in under a year or so, I bet. No sympathy for the shame he’s brought upon himself or his country. And on top of it all, he empowers an enemy of the United States and the entire western world by sobbing out that pre-written story about how the America Government made him do it. I hope he spends at least the next 5 years over there planting apple trees. At least 5. Fuck this guy. ---
**Author:** ![Napier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Napier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Napier)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2016, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/53 "2016-03-18T02:31:38Z")
I bet most of us did something dumber than this when we were 21. He’s in a world of trouble. I feel sorry for him more than I feel anger at him. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2016, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/54 "2016-03-18T02:32:18Z")
I agree the kid is a stoop, but 15 years at hard labor is totally out of proportion to the crime, assuming he did it. I would never go to North Korea. Until recently, I could not have even if I’d wanted to, working for a newspaper. I think they don’t let in anyone connected with the media. But despite having now left that, I wouldn’t trust them not to pull something on me. No thanks, there are plenty of other countries that won’t enslave me even if I do commit some petty crime. ---
**Author:** ![rsat3acr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a3d4f5/32.png) [@rsat3acr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rsat3acr)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2016, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/55 "2016-03-18T02:49:58Z")
> [@Napier](#): > > I bet most of us did something dumber than this when we were 21. He’s in a world of trouble. I feel sorry for him more than I feel anger at him. No, did a lot of things worse then taking a propaganda banner, but never as dumb as doing it in North Korea. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2016, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/56 "2016-03-18T02:53:52Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > I agree the kid is a stoop, but 15 years at hard labor is totally out of proportion to the crime, assuming he did it. Out of proportion anywhere else. But this is North Korea. The punishment should come as no surprise. **Napier** , Location matters. Committing a petty theft in North Korea is 100s of times dumber than simply stealing from a hotel somewhere else. I don’t know anyone who has done anything even remotely close to how dumb it is to steal in North Korea. This isn’t even one of those things that is only illegal in NK. Its not like he accidentally used his finger to point at a picture of the Dear Leader not knowing it is a crime. He stole a banner. He knew it was a crime when he did it. He is a 21 year old college student who reasonably should have known the risk involved. He took a chance and lost. Play stupid games; win stupid prizes. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2016, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/57 "2016-03-18T02:55:28Z")
Being stupid is not a crime. Ignorance should be met with a lesson to help you not do it again, not with actual punishment. It becomes more tricky when someone is actually hurt by your actions, but, absent that, I can’t in any way think the kid deserves this. I actually am more likely to blame whoever raised him so that he was this fucking stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2016, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/58 "2016-03-18T02:56:27Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > Out of proportion anywhere else. But this is North Korea. The punishment should come as no surprise. No surprise, of course not, but still out of proportion to all decency. And as for that Singaporean caning, it’s a common misconception that a caning is nothing more than a spanking. It’s a recognized form of torture that can cut right to the bone. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2016, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/59 "2016-03-18T03:04:21Z")
Any adult who goes to North Korea and tries to steal _anything_ is stoopid with two O’s. But the punishment is so grossly disproportionate to the offense that I do kinda sorta feel sorry for the guy. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2016, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/60 "2016-03-18T03:29:27Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > No surprise, of course not, but still out of proportion to all decency. And as for that Singaporean caning, it’s a common misconception that a caning is nothing more than a spanking. It’s a recognized form of torture that can cut right to the bone. I understand that, which is why I think it is a good analogy. In most places, getting flesh ripped from your body is not is not a deserving sentence for grafiti. But when one is not in “most places” one should respect the host’s laws… or at least respect the potential consequences! I might not agree with countries that force women to cover their heads, but if we are visiting such a place, my wife will comply with the rule. And in such cases where noncomplianve could lead to physical harm or incarceration: the choice is to either not visit those places, or abide by their rules. How stulid would we be to go to a country where it is criminal for women to not cover up, and then cry to the embassy when we intentionally break that rule? Choose to go somewhere, then you agree to be bound by their rules and to accept their punishments. Otherwise, dont go. He went to that country on his own accord. He willingly commited theft. He is getting what he deserves. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206.md?page=4)