# Weirdly mixed feelings about Otto Warmbier (American student sentenced to 15 years in N Korea) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 16, 2016, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206 "2016-03-16T19:43:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2016, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/101 "2016-03-21T23:37:50Z")
> [@XT](#): > > You seriously believe that Lil’ Kimmy V2.0 hit 18 holes in one the first time he played golf or that men around the world dress up as he does because he’s revered around the globe? 😛 Seriously, man…they make up stuff every day out of whole cloth. Nearly everything they say is a lie. While only, say 70-80% of what comes out of Chinese state run media is bullshit, it’s like 99.9999998% in North Korea. I believe Little Fatty Junior (as many Chinese people (not the Chinese government) call him) hit those holes in one as much as I believe Warmbier stole that banner. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2016, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/102 "2016-03-22T02:36:27Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > I believe Little Fatty Junior (as many Chinese people (not the Chinese government) call him) hit those holes in one as much as I believe Warmbier stole that banner. Same here. It’s a bit chilling to see the big lie in action. People in this thread (well, those who aren’t deluded) know…they KNOW…that North Korea lies. Constantly. They have been a regime that has been literally built around lies, have lied for decades to the world and to their own people. Yet this time they must be telling the truth because…preconceptions! Annoying man child westerner! Must just be a coincidence in the timing here! I mean, he confessed before the trial, right? And everyone knows that you can never get a confession out of an innocent man! Got to be true. Just this time though. Their constant stream of lies for decades pretty much proves that this time (and those other times they caught westerners and insurgents red handed…er, would it be blue handed?) they are telling the truth. :dubious: :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2016, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/103 "2016-05-04T03:06:11Z")
Regarding the notion that these detainees never really see the inside of a labor camp, [Kenneth Bae says otherwise](http://edition.cnn.com/2016/05/02/us/kenneth-bae-interview/index.html). ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2016, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/104 "2016-05-06T21:11:17Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > Regarding the notion that these detainees never really see the inside of a labor camp, [Kenneth Bae says otherwise](http://edition.cnn.com/2016/05/02/us/kenneth-bae-interview/index.html). I actually already covered that specifically early in the thread: > [@](#): > > I believe Bae is also the only American citizen to actually be sent to a labor camp, albeit he was sent to a special prison where he worked on a farm in conditions significantly nicer than the “typical” North Korean prison camps that most of the horror stories come from. So he was sent to more of a specialized facility designed for more light punishments (I’m not sure who the North Koreans normally send there, maybe persons who are connected well enough that it’s decided they shouldn’t be sent to the “bad” camps, or perhaps the facility was built solely for Bae, who knows.) Based on the reported treatment of the other 11 people detained in NK since 1996 Bae was the only one who was really put to hard labor–and he was not put in a normal labor camp where he had any interaction with North Korean prisoners. He was basically in a facility solely for himself. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2016, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/105 "2016-05-07T07:58:43Z")
Missed that earlier. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2016, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/106 "2016-05-17T13:24:53Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Yeah, if I were SECSTATE I would give serious thought to prohibiting all U.S. citizen travel to NK. The State Department hasn’t quite gone that far yet, but…: [News, Politics, Sports, Mail & Latest Headlines - AOL.com](http://www.aol.com/article/2016/05/16/state-department-americans-traveling-to-n-korea-risk-unduly-h/21378344/) ---
**Author:** ![Kimera757](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kimera757/32/3765_2.png) [@Kimera757](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimera757)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2016, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/107 "2016-05-21T18:30:08Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > I’m generally extremely dubious of our national interest in going to any lengths to repatriate Americans who voluntary go to dangerous places. I’d be happy if the strongest State Department warnings essentially said, “Travel here and you’re on your own, Bucko!” > > Unless there is some huge as yet unseen factor, such as this guy being a CIA agent, he pushes the furthest end of the curve. He oughtn’t have gone there, and if he chose to, he oughtn’t have done something so stupid. Sucks to be him. Not one scintilla of American attention or interest ought to be committed to earning his release. The only appropriate response ought to be to publicize his case to inform potential travelers, “Don’t be like this idiot!” I very strongly agree with this statement, and wonder about people visiting other dangerous countries as well. In 2007, a group of South Korean missionaries traveled to Afghanistan. Before they went some of them actually posed in a picture at the airport under a sign saying that travel to Afghanistan was dangerous. They were captured and two of them were executed. South Korea had to pull their (small number of non-combat) troops out of the country to get the rest of them released. I’m from Canada. Three Canadians have been kidnapped in Afghanistan so far and two released (one had been held for five years). I vaguely recall reading about a Canadian who had been executed there recently but I couldn’t find that on Wikipedia or Google. > [@Monty](#): > > For those of you calling Warmbier an idiot, why are you calling him that? Is it just because he took a trip to North Korea or because you believe he actually did what the Norks accuse him of doing? If it’s the latter, why would you believe the Norks? The former. The quote “no sentient person goes to the border of Iran” really suits this situation, just change the name of the country. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2016, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/108 "2016-05-22T02:46:40Z")
> [@Kimera757](#): > > I vaguely recall reading about a Canadian who had been executed there recently but I couldn’t find that on Wikipedia or Google. I believe a kidnapped Canadian was executed a few weeks ago in the Philippines. Perhaps he’s the one you’re thinking of. But overall, I would not consider the Philippines a dangerous place to go. Certainly not in the same league as Afghanistan. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2016, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/109 "2016-05-22T07:16:01Z")
> [@Kimera757](#): > > I very strongly agree with this statement, and wonder about people visiting other dangerous countries as well. If you agree with that posting, then you accept North Korea’s narrative of the event, an event which is almost 100% certainly a thing that did not happen at all. What did happen, obviously, is that Warmbier has been detained by the NK government. > [@](#): > > In 2007, a group of South Korean missionaries traveled to Afghanistan. Before they went some of them actually posed in a picture at the airport under a sign saying that travel to Afghanistan was dangerous. They were captured and two of them were executed. South Korea had to pull their (small number of non-combat) troops out of the country to get the rest of them released. North Korea is not Afghanistan. The dangers associated with each one are quite different. For North Korea, the danger is being detained, fed, treated with what medical care NK can provide, and then released when and if the hostage’s own government capitulates to NK on some point absolutely unconnected with the hostage. In Afghanistan, the danger was in being kidnapped and killed by a terrorist organization. Granted, the NK government itself is essentially a terrorist organization but they don’t shoot up random foreigners visiting their country. What NK does, however, do is detain and bargain. Well, there was the one instance in which a NK soldier did shoot and kill a SK tourist, and the SK government stopped all tourism by their citizens to NK in response. > [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > I believe a kidnapped Canadian was executed a few weeks ago in the Philippines. Perhaps he’s the one you’re thinking of. But overall, I would not consider the Philippines a dangerous place to go. Certainly not in the same league as Afghanistan. It depends on where in the Philippines one would go. Overall, of course, the country is safe for tourism. Certain areas are not controlled very well–or at all–by the national government. The US State Department has [this](https://travel.state.gov/content/passports/en/alertswarnings/philippines-travel-warning.html) to say: > [@](#): > > Philippines Travel Warning > Last Updated: April 21, 2016 > > The Department of State warns U.S. citizens to avoid all non-essential travel to the Sulu Archipelago and through the southern Sulu Sea, and to exercise extreme caution when traveling to the island of Mindanao, due to continued terrorist threats, insurgent activities and kidnappings. This Travel Warning replaces the Travel Warning dated October 21, 2015. > > U.S. citizens should continue to defer non-essential travel to the Sulu Archipelago, due to the high threat of kidnapping of international travelers, increased threat of maritime kidnappings against small boats in the vicinity of the Sulu Archipelago, and violence linked to insurgency and terrorism there. > > U.S. citizens should defer non-essential travel through the southern Sulu Sea region from the southern tip of Palawan, along the coast of Sabah, Malaysia and the islands of the Sulu Archipelago, up to Zamboanga City, Mindanao. Terrorist and insurgent groups based in the Sulu Archipelago continue to target foreigners for kidnapping in the Eastern Sabah province of Malaysia and in the southern Sulu Sea area. > > U.S. citizens should also continue to exercise extreme caution if traveling to certain regions and cities of the island of Mindanao. Separatist and terrorist groups continue to carry out attacks and kidnappings against civilians, foreigners, political leaders, and Philippine security forces in Mindanao. Since January 2015, at least 15 separate kidnappings have been reported across Mindanao. In western Mindanao, terrorist, insurgent, and criminal gangs regularly conduct kidnappings for ransom, including the kidnapping of a foreigner in Dipolog City in early October 2015 by unknown assailants. In central Mindanao, the Bangsamoro Islamic Freedom Fighters (BIFF) remains active in the Cotabato City area, and in the Maguindanao, North Cotabato, and Sultan Kudarat provinces, where the government maintains a state of emergency and a greater police presence. While there have been no recent reported terrorist threats or incidents within the Davao City or Surigao city limits, eastern Mindanao is not free from threats. In September 2015, assailants belonging to the Abu Sayyaf Group kidnapped four individuals, including three foreigners, from the popular resort island of Samal, a 15 minute boat ride from Davao City. There have been no reports of U.S. citizens in Mindanao targeted specifically for their nationality; however, general threats to U.S. citizens and other foreigners throughout Mindanao remain a concern. > > Although U.S. government officials in the Philippines travel to Mindanao for official business without incident, the Embassy has imposed strict restrictions on all but the most essential travel to the area, and Embassy employees must receive special authorization from Embassy security officials to travel to any location in Mindanao or the Sulu Archipelago. ---
**Author:** ![Kimera757](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kimera757/32/3765_2.png) [@Kimera757](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimera757)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2016, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/110 "2016-05-22T12:41:55Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > If you agree with that posting, then you accept North Korea’s narrative of the event, an event which is almost 100% certainly a thing that did not happen at all. What did happen, obviously, is that Warmbier has been detained by the NK government. I don’t agree with what North Korea said or did. I don’t know if Warmbier even stole the sign (and if he did, 10-15 years hard labor is not reasonable). I just want to know why Warmbier went to one of the most dangerous countries on Earth for a vacation. It was so incredibly stupid. No amount of money, sexy women or boredom could convince me to go to North Korea. I don’t need the government to warn me off (though they would). ---
**Author:** ![HubZilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ccd318/32.png) [@HubZilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HubZilla)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2016, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/111 "2016-05-25T21:11:02Z")
I seem to recall he took the banner for his church. Has this church spoken up about him yet? ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2016, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/112 "2016-05-26T01:52:24Z")
> [@HubZilla](#): > > I seem to recall he took the banner for his church. Has this church spoken up about him yet? Sounds just like something that NK would say. “Christianity is Evil” Now, his church may have suggested that he spread the word of ‘God’, but I rather doubt that they asked him to steal propaganda banners. I suspect that the US State Department has suggested that his church not make a statement. ---
**Author:** ![buddy431](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6a8cbe/32.png) [@buddy431](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddy431)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2016, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/113 "2016-05-26T02:37:04Z")
> [@Kimera757](#): > > I just want to know why Warmbier went to one of the most dangerous countries on Earth for a vacation. It was so incredibly stupid. Except, objectively, it’s not one of the most dangerous countries on Earth for American tourists. No Americans are killed, a few are detained for a short amount of time. And you probably don’t have to deal with some of the more “normal” dangers of traveling like getting robbed. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2016, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/114 "2016-05-26T04:15:08Z")
> [@HubZilla](#): > > I seem to recall he took the banner for his church. Has this church spoken up about him yet? His “confession” said he did it to impress the Z Society, which is a secret society at UVA, but the confession also said the Z Society had links to the CIA, so … ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2016, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/115 "2016-05-26T11:06:56Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > Sounds just like something that NK would say. “Christianity is Evil” Yep. > [@](#): > > Now, his church may have suggested that he spread the word of ‘God’, but I rather doubt that they asked him to steal propaganda banners. Of course they didn’t. It’s a fabrication from the Norks. How would the people at his church even know that there would be a propaganda banner in a stairwell that’s off-limits to foreign visitors? > [@](#): > > I suspect that the US State Department has suggested that his church not make a statement. I suspect the US Department of State did not do that either. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2017, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/116 "2017-06-13T19:14:38Z")
> [@](#): > > University of Virginia student Otto Warmbier has been medically evacuated from North Korea in a coma after being detained for 17 months, his parents told The Washington Post on Tuesday. Warmbier, 22, is due to arrive home in Cincinnati on Tuesday evening, after a stop at a U.S. military facility near Sapporo, Japan. > > The family said they were informed that North Korean officials had told American envoys that Warmbier became ill with botulism sometime after his March trial in North Korea, where he was serving a 15-year-sentence for “hostile acts against the state.” The North Korean account, the family said, claimed Warmbier then fell into a coma after being given a sleeping pill. The Warmbiers said they were told their son has remained in a coma since then. [https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/university-of-virginia-student-otto-warmbier-in-a-coma-released-from-north-korea/2017/06/13/febba10a-503d-11e7-91eb-9611861a988f\_story.html](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/university-of-virginia-student-otto-warmbier-in-a-coma-released-from-north-korea/2017/06/13/febba10a-503d-11e7-91eb-9611861a988f_story.html) Anyone know medically if this could happen? [My guess instead would be that he was so badly beaten that he suffered brain injuries.] ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2017, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/117 "2017-06-13T21:00:10Z")
Evidence of cranial trauma will be fairly easy to find, if it exists. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2017, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/118 "2017-06-13T22:10:06Z")
Yeah, about that, well, he fell down and hit his head after he was given the sleeping pill. Seventeen times. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2017, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/119 "2017-06-13T22:19:43Z")
I’m no expert on treatment for botulism, but… a sleeping pill? ---
**Author:** ![Warm\_blood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/df705f/32.png) [@Warm\_blood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Warm_blood)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/120 "2017-06-14T02:51:35Z")
Serious question, why don’t they ban all travel to North Korea? There’s absolutely no logical reason for why anyone who’s not a native of the country to go there. Also, what is the impetus behind keeping a comatose person detained for a year before finally deciding to release them? Why didn’t they ship him back to his homeland as soon as he fell unconscious? Are they aware of the diplomatic nightmare this presents if he dies thus making them responsible for his death? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206.md?page=7)