# Weirdly mixed feelings about Otto Warmbier (American student sentenced to 15 years in N Korea) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 16, 2016, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206 "2016-03-16T19:43:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/121 "2017-06-14T03:57:42Z")
Diplomatic nightmare? It’s not possible for them to be more shunned. They don’t give a fuck about anything. ---
**Author:** ![Warm\_blood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/df705f/32.png) [@Warm\_blood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Warm_blood)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/122 "2017-06-14T04:07:27Z")
They gave enough of a fuck to not harm previous detainees. So what’s making them so brazen this time? ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/123 "2017-06-14T05:12:14Z")
Around 5,000 westerners, and 100,000 Asians, visit North Korea each year. The proportion detained for dubious reasons seems quite low, and I’d bet there are other, more well-known tourist destinations, with a higher proportion. A number of my friends took part in the Pyongyang marathon this year, and I was disappointed that work commitments stopped me from joining them. The situation with Warmbier has definitely given me and others pause though. But I don’t agree with some upthread saying that at the time he went it was a really stupid decision / crazy risk. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/124 "2017-06-14T09:18:29Z")
> [@somepumpkin](#): > > And, to look on the bright side, think of the great story this guy’s gonna have [del]if[/del] when he gets home. …if/when he comes out of a year-long coma. Might sound like this: _“Arrrgh, uhhhhgg arrrhhhuurrr…”_ ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/125 "2017-06-14T10:15:29Z")
I don’t think Warmbier was crazy for going to North Korea. I’ve seen several really interesting travel blogs from Americans and other travelers from Pyongyang that actually seem to humanize North Korea a little. It was a calculated risk. Chances are, he goes there and has a few interesting stories to tell. Unfortunately, he was among the small percentage of folks who end up finding themselves in a world of shit. The most dangerous places on earth aren’t strict dictatorial regimes like North Korea. The most dangerous places on earth are where there is no law and order. Some areas in Mexico and much of the Hindu-Kush region, for instance. I’ve read of people traveling to remote areas of Afghanistan – now that is effing dangerous. What happened to Warmbier could actually happen in a lot of countries, many of which are led by regimes that are much less cultish and radical than Kim Jung Un’s North Korea. They may not necessarily be detained and used as political pawns in this manner, but foreign travelers, including those from powerful developed countries, can easily find themselves detained for dubious reasons by corrupt local officials or powerful locall citizens. They could be detained and held for ransom by local ‘law enforcement’, kidnapped, murdered, whatever. It’s probably a low risk, but a risk nevertheless. In my experience, the most common reason for Western visitors finding themselves in trouble was getting drunk in some local watering hole and then mouthing off to the wrong people. But that doesn’t appear to be what happened here. I agree with Monty: Kim Jung Un’s regime wanted a bargaining chip. They probably beat him nearly to death on purpose to escalate and make America aware that they actually do have it in them to kill one of their detainees. It reminds me of the way Malaysia seemed determined some years ago now to send a message to Australia that they actually had it in them to execute two of their nationals for drug trafficking. ---
**Author:** ![Patx2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/73ab20/32.png) [@Patx2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patx2)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/126 "2017-06-14T19:58:56Z")
> [@somepumpkin](#): > > Generally, I agree with the OP, too. > > And, to look on the bright side, think of the great story this guy’s gonna have [del]if[/del] when he gets home. Maybe he will have a story to tell. Are reports true that he’s been in a coma since March? ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/127 "2017-06-14T20:33:07Z")
> [@Gatopescado](#): > > …if/when he comes out of a year-long coma. > > Might sound like this: _“Arrrgh, uhhhhgg arrrhhhuurrr…”_ You’re a terrible person. I’m surprised I haven’t seen you at the meetings. ---
**Author:** ![quimper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7c8e57/32.png) [@quimper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/quimper)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2017, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/128 "2017-06-15T00:13:28Z")
> [@Patx2](#): > > Maybe he will have a story to tell. Are reports true that he’s been in a coma since March? He hadn’t been seen since March **2016** , so he’s been in a coma for over a year. My (admittedly morbid) WAG? He attempted suicide and (mostly) succeeded. I hope he recovers. ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2017, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/129 "2017-06-15T00:40:07Z")
A horrible situation. I feel very sorry for him. ---
**Author:** ![Kimera757](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kimera757/32/3765_2.png) [@Kimera757](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimera757)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2017, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/130 "2017-06-15T00:57:16Z")
> [@Warm\_blood](#): > > Serious question, why don’t they ban all travel to North Korea? There’s absolutely no logical reason for why anyone who’s not a native of the country to go there. Unfortunately that wouldn’t work. There are lots of rules and laws designed to prevent idiots from acting like idiots, and they don’t work. People still drive without seatbelts. Sometimes while being distracted by talking on a hands-free smartphone. Or maybe it’s not hands-free. And maybe they’re actually taking naked video of themselves. Even if the US were to outright outlaw travel there, there’s nothing preventing a person from flying from the US to Japan, taking a flight to China, then taking a tour bus into North Korea. Someone will do it even if they have to buy a prepaid credit card (if American credit cards prevent this). “Stupidity is like water. It always finds a way.” I think the US should just say they will not rescue anyone who gets stranded, arrested or what have you in North Korea. That won’t stop all the idiots, but it means the US doesn’t have to expend any time or energy trying to rescue them. This makes taking hostages a poor strategy. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2017, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/131 "2017-06-15T20:14:34Z")
> [@](#): > > Released North Korea detainee Otto Warmbier suffered extensive brain damage and shows no current signs of botulism, doctors at the University of Cincinnati Medical Center said Thursday. > The 22-year-old has not spoken or “engaged in any purposeful movements” since arriving in the country Tuesday night, said Dr. Daniel Kanter, professor of neurology and director of the Neurocritical Care Program. “He shows no signs of understanding language or responding to verbal commands,” the doctor said, adding that Warmbier’s condition is best described as “unresponsive wakefulness.” > > The doctors said they could not speculate on what caused his injuries. They said they had no information about the kind of care he received in North Korea. The earliest images of his brain from North Korea are dated April 2016, Kanter said. An analysis suggests the injury likely occurred in the preceding weeks. “This pattern of brain injury is usually seen as result of cardiopulmonary arrest where the blood supply to brain is inadequate for a period of time resulting in the death of brain tissue,” he said. > The doctors would not discuss Warmbier’s prognosis. > **[Doctors: Ex-North Korea detainee Otto Warmbier has severe brain injury | CNN...](https://www.cnn.com/2017/06/15/politics/otto-warmbier-north-korea/index.html)** > > Former North Korea detainee Otto Warmbier said said they found no evidence to support the regime’s explanation of botulism based on his condition. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2017, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/132 "2017-06-15T20:24:08Z")
Since it has been over a year the prognosis looks very poor: > **[Vegetative State - Brain Disorders A-Z - Brain Foundation Australia](https://brainfoundation.org.au/disorders/vegetative-state)** > > A person in a Vegetative State may open their eyes & have basic reflexes, but shows no signs of awareness nor meaningful responses. ---
**Author:** ![psychobunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/54ee81/32.png) [@psychobunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychobunny)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2017, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/133 "2017-06-19T21:30:04Z")
Otto Warmbier has apparently died. It all seems so senseless. I feel for his parents. I do have to wonder, though, how it was that he survived over a year in a coma in North Korea yet died so soon after returning to the US. I have to think that he must have been deteriorating rapidly which is why they returned him. Still, the punishment was still far too harsh for any crime he may have committed. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2017, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/134 "2017-06-19T21:41:01Z")
Is there any plausible non-violent cause of cardiopulmonary arrest in an otherwise healthy person in his early 20s? For that matter, what \*violent \*cause could cause such a thing? ---
**Author:** ![rocking\_chair](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocking_chair/32/2918_2.png) [@rocking\_chair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rocking_chair)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2017, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/135 "2017-06-19T21:46:46Z")
When I heard the reports from Ohio, it put me in mind of terry schiavo. I’m figuring the parents decided to “let him go”, rather than keep him on support; after conferring with the doctors. The doctors were very careful in the press conference on what was being done for otto. So very sad for the parents. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2017, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/136 "2017-06-19T22:39:53Z")
> [@](#): > > Warmbier had been medically evacuated and returned to Cincinnati last week in a coma. Fred and Cindy Warmbier said in a written statement that they watched their 22-year-old son’s face change, in the days that followed, from anguished to peaceful. “He was home and we believe he could sense that.”… > > Warmbier’s death could push Congress or the Trump administration to restrict or ban Americans from traveling to North Korea. Reps. Adam Schiff (D-Calif.) and Joe Wilson (R-S.C.) have introduced the North Korea Travel Control Act in the House, which would require Americans who want to travel to North Korea to obtain a license. There would be no licenses for tourists. The Senate has been more reluctant to introduce restrictions on Americans — but Warmbier’s death might be the trigger that they need, analysts say. Separately, Secretary of State Rex Tillerson has raised the prospect of the administration using an executive order to ban travel to North Korea. > **[Otto Warmbier dies days after release from North Korean detention](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2017/06/19/otto-warmbier-dies-days-after-release-from-north-korean-detainment/)** > > Warmbier, a University of Virginia student, returned from North Korea last week in a coma. Sen. John McCain and other leaders called his death "murder" and said North Korea must be held accountable I think a permit of some has merit. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2017, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/137 "2017-06-19T23:32:20Z")
> [@psychobunny](#): > > Otto Warmbier has apparently died. It all seems so senseless. I feel for his parents. I do have to wonder, though, how it was that he survived over a year in a coma in North Korea yet died so soon after returning to the US. I have to think that he must have been deteriorating rapidly which is why they returned him. Still, the punishment was still far too harsh for any crime he may have committed. > [@rocking\_chair](#): > > When I heard the reports from Ohio, it put me in mind of terry schiavo. I’m figuring the parents decided to “let him go”, rather than keep him on support; after conferring with the doctors. The doctors were very careful in the press conference on what was being done for otto. > > So very sad for the parents. When I read about this, I thought the two likely scenarios were: 1. He was in a coma for a year, and then the NK doctors noticed a definite deterioration and decided to get rid of the hot potato. 2. He was in some sort of persistent vegetative state and the parents decided to pull the plug. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2017, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/138 "2017-06-20T01:26:13Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Is there any plausible non-violent cause of cardiopulmonary arrest in an otherwise healthy person in his early 20s? > For that matter, what \*violent \*cause could cause such a thing? It’s impossible to say, there are tons of pharmacological causes and physical injuries which could have caused this situation. Their claim of botulism isn’t even totally out of the realm of possibility, in like 10% of botulism cases the patient dies, and it can cause respiratory paralysis which requires proper ventilation to keep the person alive until they get better. If they had a lapse in his care he could have basically been oxygen starved for just long enough to mostly kill his brain and leave him a vegetable. It’s unlikely if it was a physical injury it was a head trauma, as there would be clear signs of the skull fracturing, any head trauma bad enough to cause this level of brain damage would be impossible to hide. We’ll likely never know the truth, but there are leaked reports that somehow U.S. officials have heard that Warmbier was “repeatedly beaten”, if he was being subjected to physical abuse a lot of things could go wrong. He could even have been restrained in a stress position improperly, in a way that suppressed his ability to breathe (that was a major factor in how Eric Garner died, albeit Garner was so obese which was a huge contributing factor, but it’s theoretically possible even for a healthy weight young adult to suffer a form of positional asphyxiation.) What we do know is this is very out of the norm for North Korea. Most Americans they’ve detained have suffered privation and detention, but only a couple have been physically abused. None of those were physically abused to the point they died, or even suffered long term physical impairments, so for reasons we likely will never know the North Koreans may have decided to be far harsher with Warmbier. Or, some freak medical thing happened and they basically didn’t respond to it adequately and were left in a weird situation, of wanting to still reap the propaganda benefits of an American detainee but having a barely-alive vegetable instead of a healthy young adult. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2017, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/139 "2017-06-21T14:04:52Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Is there any plausible non-violent cause of cardiopulmonary arrest in an otherwise healthy person in his early 20s? An embolism, perhaps. Though I’m not sure that we can assume Warmbier was “otherwise healthy.” ---
**Author:** ![Warm\_blood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/df705f/32.png) [@Warm\_blood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Warm_blood)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2017, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/140 "2017-06-22T20:48:07Z")
Not to absolve Otto of any responsibility since he was an adult man fully capable of sound judgment, but this article provides illuminating insight about the tour group he was with: [https://www.consumeraffairs.com/news/booze-bribes-and-propaganda-the-company-that-promises-safe-travel-in-north-korea-061917.html](https://www.consumeraffairs.com/news/booze-bribes-and-propaganda-the-company-that-promises-safe-travel-in-north-korea-061917.html) If he was surrounded by people (including a tour guide who is supposed to know better) doing stupid stuff and getting away with it, then no wonder he felt emboldened to steal a poster (assuming that’s what really happened). Plus the guy who last saw him alive who accompanied him on the trip said they were drinking the night guards came and detained him. So being under the influence of booze + being in an environment where risky behavior is encouraged made for a dangerous cocktail. But it’s also possible that he wasn’t guilty of doing anything wrong but was singled out in order to strike fear in the touring company. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206.md?page=8)