# Weirdly mixed feelings about Otto Warmbier (American student sentenced to 15 years in N Korea) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 16, 2016, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206 "2016-03-16T19:43:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2017, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/141 "2017-06-22T21:33:17Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Is there any plausible non-violent cause of cardiopulmonary arrest in an otherwise healthy person in his early 20s? There is a minimally-violent way–“[commotio cordis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commotio_cordis).” A relatively minor hit to the sternum at exactly the wrong moment during the heart’s cycle can cause it to stop. I’m not saying that it is _likely_ (especially since apparently it is mostly in people younger than Warmbier) but it is in theory possible that some bit of rough but not utterly brutal handling caused his heart to stop. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2017, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/142 "2017-06-22T21:44:21Z")
My feelings aren’t really mixed, here. I just feel terrible for the guy and his family. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2017, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/143 "2017-06-23T00:06:23Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > My feelings aren’t really mixed, here. I just feel terrible for the guy and his family. Keep in mind that this thread was started when he was first detained. ---
**Author:** ![Kimera757](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kimera757/32/3765_2.png) [@Kimera757](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimera757)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2017, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/144 "2017-06-23T00:47:05Z")
> [@Warm\_blood](#): > > Not to absolve Otto of any responsibility since he was an adult man fully capable of sound judgment, but this article provides illuminating insight about the tour group he was with: [https://www.consumeraffairs.com/news/booze-bribes-and-propaganda-the-company-that-promises-safe-travel-in-north-korea-061917.html](https://www.consumeraffairs.com/news/booze-bribes-and-propaganda-the-company-that-promises-safe-travel-in-north-korea-061917.html) > > If he was surrounded by people (including a tour guide who is supposed to know better) doing stupid stuff and getting away with it, then no wonder he felt emboldened to steal a poster (assuming that’s what really happened). I have a family member with a troubled child who does stupid stuff, and she always trots out an excuse like that. “Her friends/grandmother/whoever do stupid things too.” I don’t buy it. > [@](#): > > But it’s also possible that he wasn’t guilty of doing anything wrong but was singled out in order to strike fear in the touring company. If you could drop the last four words I would agree with you. (The touring company brings money to North Korea, and intimidating them isn’t diplomatically useful, while intimidating America apparently is.) ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2017, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/145 "2017-06-23T15:48:29Z")
Here is a University of Delaware professor who feels he got exactly what he deserved: > **[Prof says Otto Warmbier 'got exactly what he deserved'](https://www.campusreform.org/article?id=9350)** > > 0 I disagree. While I feel he was extremely stupid for going to North Korea, the final result was a tragedy. ---
**Author:** ![Warm\_blood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/df705f/32.png) [@Warm\_blood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Warm_blood)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2017, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/146 "2017-06-23T18:30:39Z")
@ Kimera757: I did say this doesn’t absolve him of his idiocy, so I’m not using it as an excuse for his behavior, I’m just saying it _may_ provide some context for his actions. The company isn’t accountable for how their travelers behave but I do feel the tour guide has a responsibility to not act like a drunken frat boy not only for the purpose of setting an example but also for the travelers’ safety. Some of his antics have nearly gotten a whole group into trouble. And yeah, it’s more accurate to say Otto may have been an innocent scapegoat used to “punish” the US, but I initially thought he was singled out to send the tour company a message about what their silly antics may cause. But I just remembered the tour guide/founder of the company is British so that would be kinda pointless. Now I wonder if Otto was the only American national on that fateful trip. If so, it really increases the likelihood that he was just guilty of only going on that trip in the first place. @ PastTense: Did that person seriously insinuate that Otto was a rapist and a junkie purely on the fact that he was a rich, white male? How does she sound any better than those who generalize minorities in the same manner? Apologies for the format of this reply, the quote function seems broken on my end. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2017, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/147 "2017-06-24T09:34:09Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > Sounds just like something that NK would say. “Christianity is Evil” > > Now, his church may have suggested that he spread the word of ‘God’, but I rather doubt that they asked him to steal propaganda banners. I note the New York “Yiddish” papers are reporting the young man was a Jew. I have no idea if this is true. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2017, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/148 "2017-06-24T14:17:13Z")
[This video](https://youtu.be/sMywpnYUNp4) has a great analysis of Warmbier’s “confession”. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2017, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/149 "2017-06-24T16:53:05Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > I note the New York “Yiddish” papers are reporting the young man was a Jew. I have no idea if this is true. From [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Warmbier): **“His mother is of Jewish descent.”** and **“He was a brother of the Theta Chi fraternity, and was active in the Hillel Jewish campus organization at the University of Virginia. He had visited Israel in a Birthright Israel heritage trip for young Jewish adults, a visit he described in a blog post.”** I doubt he was being persecuted based on his religion though. It’s all the same to North Korea. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2017, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/150 "2017-06-24T17:50:22Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > [This video](https://youtu.be/sMywpnYUNp4) has a great analysis of Warmbier’s “confession”. Interesting link. It makes me suspect that he was innocent - or at least innocent of what he was accused of. I wonder if there is any forensic analysis of the video that shows him taking the banner. It’s very suspect to me, because the “perp” removes the banner and sets it down on the floor. No hesitation, no attempt fold it, roll it up, no attempt to really TAKE it. And the person handles the banner almost reverently. And It seems like the shadowy figure may be shorter than Warmbier, although I don’t have a real basis to judge. And the confession was obviously scripted. I don’t for a minute believe that the act was commissioned by his church and planned in advance of his trip. I always felt that if he did it it was an impulsive act, possibly fueled by alcohol. I guess I thought maybe he glimpsed the banner on the far side of a “staff-only” door. But according to the linked video, the entire floor was “staff only” and the guest elevators don’t stop on that floor. So he would have had to work out how to gain access to that floor, which doesn’t seem to fit with “drunken impulse”. I really think something else was going on, I’m just not sure what. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2017, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/151 "2017-06-24T17:54:19Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > So he would have had to work out how to gain access to that floor, which doesn’t seem to fit with “drunken impulse”. Well, maybe in this case but not necessarily in general. I performed some amazingly intricate mischief while under the influence back in my salad days. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2017, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/152 "2017-06-24T18:34:52Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > I hope he spends at least the next 5 years over there planting apple trees. At least 5. Fuck this guy. Well, you got your wish and he got good and fucked. Why don’t you write this in a card and send it to his family in Cincinnati? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2017, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/153 "2017-06-24T19:27:41Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Well, you got your wish and he got good and fucked. Why don’t you write this in a card and send it to his family in Cincinnati? “Five years planting apple trees,” is pretty far from, “beaten into a year-long coma he never recovers from.” ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2017, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/154 "2017-06-24T19:42:43Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > I doubt he was being persecuted based on his religion though. It’s all the same to North Korea. Probably not. But North Korea is positively on the Palestinian side in the conflict with Israel, which it labels ‘imperialist’. Also though I know of no survey of NK public feelings about Jews, South Korea scores surprisingly high on antisemitism in ADL’s global survey, 53% v 9% in the US, 8% in the UK, 37% in France, 20% China, 23% Japan. Part of the might be in how outspoken people are about their harsh opinions of others in different countries, but still interesting. And to the extent it has anything to do with the element of Korean culture that remains common between North and South (one theory might be that diaspora Koreans often find themselves in competition with Jews in the US among ‘over achieving minorities’ and that competitive tension feeds back through family ties to create negative ROK attitudes toward Jews, which wouldn’t apply to NK). [http://global100.adl.org/](http://global100.adl.org/) ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2017, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/155 "2017-06-24T20:22:32Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > “Five years planting apple trees,” is pretty far from, “beaten into a year-long coma he never recovers from.” “Fuck this guy” means “fuck this guy.” When you’re talking about leaving someone to his fate in the hands of a cruel and brutal regime, this pitch me was perfectly foreseeable. So if you say he deserves to be left in the hands of that system, this is what you’re saying he deserves. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2018, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/156 "2018-04-26T20:43:09Z")
[The bier is cold but the lawsuit is hot](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/amid-trumps-diplomatic-thaw-otto-warmbiers-parents-sue-north-korea-for-having-brutally-tortured-and-murdered-their-son/2018/04/26/625e4fb8-495e-11e8-8b5a-3b1697adcc2a_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.789acbe86f4c). ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2018, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/157 "2018-04-26T20:52:59Z")
Diplomatically awkward, to be sure, but I can’t fault the parents for timing their lawsuit to maximize what little leverage they have. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2018, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/158 "2018-04-27T16:46:53Z")
Here’s CNN’s coverage of the parents’ lawsuit: [https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/26/politics/otto-warmbier-family-lawsuit-north-korea/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/26/politics/otto-warmbier-family-lawsuit-north-korea/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2018, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/159 "2018-04-28T00:03:44Z")
There are **very** few people involved with this “story” at any stage, who have strong reasons or incentives to tell the truth about what happened. Almost everybody with any connection has reason to be embarrassed or humiliated or suspicious or protective or whatever other things that could make them want the truth to remain hidden. Reporters have essentially no credible sources to rely on, regarding the main question of “what happened over there anyway”. ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/160 "2018-04-30T00:00:26Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > Diplomatically awkward, to be sure, but I can’t fault the parents for timing their lawsuit to maximize what little leverage they have. What leverage would that be? Under what scenario could North Korea ever be made to pay a dime? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206.md?page=9)