# Weirdly mixed feelings about Otto Warmbier (American student sentenced to 15 years in N Korea) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 16, 2016, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206 "2016-03-16T19:43:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Warm\_blood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/df705f/32.png) [@Warm\_blood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Warm_blood)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/161 "2018-04-30T00:20:46Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > What leverage would that be? Under what scenario could North Korea ever be made to pay a dime? Especially since his parents declined to have an autopsy performed on their son, which would render it impossible to prove North Korean authorities were responsible for his injuries and subsequent death. Speaking of which, I read that when he was brought back home in his comatose state, he was said to be howling and jerking. My question is, how can someone who’s in a coma make noises and move their body? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/162 "2018-04-30T14:17:03Z")
Comatose people [often twitch and move involuntarily.](https://io9.gizmodo.com/5966630/the-neuroscience-of-comas-or-what-it-means-to-be-trapped-inside-your-own-mind) ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/163 "2018-04-30T14:23:05Z")
What gets me is the American arrogance that led him to believe that he could take liberties with a society that is known far and wide for its ruthlessly punitive approach to anything outside of any of its laws. I can only believe that attitude is a product of our tremendously permissive society. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/164 "2018-04-30T14:38:40Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > What gets me is the American arrogance that led him to believe that he could take liberties with a society that is known far and wide for its ruthlessly punitive approach to anything outside of any of its laws. I can only believe that attitude is a product of our tremendously permissive society. After all that has been said and linked to in this thread, do you even consider it possible that North Korea set him up? ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/165 "2018-04-30T15:47:52Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > What leverage would that be? Under what scenario could North Korea ever be made to pay a dime? As part of some larger overall deal with the United States. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/166 "2018-04-30T15:58:11Z")
> [@Warm\_blood](#): > > Especially since his parents declined to have an autopsy performed on their son, which would render it impossible to prove North Korean authorities were responsible for his injuries and subsequent death. > > Speaking of which, I read that when he was brought back home in his comatose state, he was said to be howling and jerking. Said by who? ---
**Author:** ![Warm\_blood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/df705f/32.png) [@Warm\_blood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Warm_blood)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/167 "2018-04-30T16:30:02Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Said by who? [The parents described the condition his family found him in when they went aboard an air ambulance that arrived June 13 in Cincinnati. They said Warmbier, a 22-year-old University of Virginia student, was howling, making an “involuntary, inhuman sound,” ″staring blankly into space jerking violently,” and was blind and deaf with his head shaved.](https://globalnews.ca/news/3770424/otto-warmbier-parents-north-korea/) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/168 "2018-04-30T16:34:42Z")
> [@Warm\_blood](#): > > [The parents described the condition his family found him in when they went aboard an air ambulance that arrived June 13 in Cincinnati. They said Warmbier, a 22-year-old University of Virginia student, was howling, making an “involuntary, inhuman sound,” ″staring blankly into space jerking violently,” and was blind and deaf with his head shaved.](https://globalnews.ca/news/3770424/otto-warmbier-parents-north-korea/) Not a comatose state, though- > [@](#): > > He died less than a week after returning at University of Cincinnati Medical Center. Doctors there said he arrived in a state of “unresponsive wakefulness” and had suffered a “severe neurological injury” of uncertain cause. ---
**Author:** ![Poysyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Poysyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Poysyn)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/169 "2018-04-30T16:55:05Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > What gets me is the American arrogance that led him to believe that he could take liberties with a society that is known far and wide for its ruthlessly punitive approach to anything outside of any of its laws. I can only believe that attitude is a product of our tremendously permissive society. I am pretty sure this was mentioned earlier - but do we have any proof that he actually committed the crime? Going to NK as a tourist is not a wise choice, but the NK government has certainly accused people falsely in the past. ---
**Author:** ![Warm\_blood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/df705f/32.png) [@Warm\_blood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Warm_blood)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/170 "2018-04-30T18:12:30Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Not a comatose state, though- Yeah, but a lot of news reports from legitimate sources described him as comatose. [“University of Virginia student, held for 17 months in prison with hard labor for trying to steal a propaganda poster, had been in a coma since returning home”](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jun/19/otto-warmbier-dies-coma-student-north-korea-prison) [“Otto Warmbier, the American college student who was recently sent home in a coma after being held prisoner for 17 months in North Korea, died Monday at age 22.”](https://news.vice.com/en_us/article/vbzjjj/otto-warmbier-dies-after-returning-from-north-korean-prison-in-coma) [“Otto Warmbier, the American student imprisoned by North Korea for 17 months and freed last week in a coma, died on Monday afternoon, according to a statement by his family.”](http://www.latimes.com/world/la-fg-otto-warmbier-dies-north-korea-20170619-story.html) Granted, all the articles I linked to above describe his state as “unresponsive wakefulness” in the body of the article but they still contradict themselves by saying he was in a coma. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/171 "2018-04-30T18:30:05Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > After all that has been said and linked to in this thread, do you even consider it possible that North Korea set him up? Well, as they often say in the religious discussions on this board, “Prove it.” Without proof, it’s just conjecture. This case aside, there have been many occasions when Americans, mostly foolish young people, have taken liberties with the laws in other nations and paid dearly for it. My point weathers the test of history. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/172 "2018-04-30T18:33:14Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > Well, as they often say in the religious discussions on this board, “Prove it.” Without proof, it’s just conjecture. This case aside, there have been many occasions when Americans, mostly foolish young people, have taken liberties with the laws in other nations and paid dearly for it. My point weathers the test of history. Actually, the accused is innocent until proven guilty in this country. Did North Korea’s case prove that he was guilty to you? edited to add: What does North Korea’s long history of trumped-up cases say to you? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/173 "2018-04-30T18:35:36Z")
> [@Poysyn](#): > > I am pretty sure this was mentioned earlier - but do we have any proof that he actually committed the crime? Proof that it’s true -[ul][li]The North Korean government said he did it. [/ul][ul][_]The North Korean government said they have a video of him doing it.[/ul]Proof that it’s false -[ul][_]The North Korean government said…[/ul][/li]Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/channing_idaho_banks/32/250_2.png) [@Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Channing_Idaho_Banks)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2019, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/174 "2019-03-01T22:03:48Z")
I’m questioning whether the president actually even asked Kim about this. “He didn’t know about it” just sounds like something loser Donald would make up. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2019, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/175 "2019-03-01T22:15:35Z")
> [@Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](#): > > I’m questioning whether the president actually even asked Kim about this. “He didn’t know about it” just sounds like something loser Donald would make up. Wet noodle. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2019, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/176 "2019-03-02T05:40:54Z")
Warmbier’s parents are having none of it: [Otto Warmbier's family rebukes Trump, says Kim Jong Un is responsible for son's death | CNN Politics](https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/01/politics/otto-warmbier-family-trump-north-korea/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2019, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/177 "2019-03-03T09:52:17Z")
I don’t support the right of any government to kill a non-threatening individual. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2019, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/178 "2019-03-03T13:20:55Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > Well, as they often say in the religious discussions on this board, “Prove it.” I think the point is: a person making a claim must support that claim. Your previous post implied he clearly had committed this crime. If someone questions that, then that does not mean they are making the opposite claim. > [@](#): > > Without proof, it’s just conjecture. I would say evidence, not proof. The latter is often impossible. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2019, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/179 "2019-03-03T23:51:36Z")
A thread title that always made me feel like breaking into song can no longer be denied: _“I’ve got weirdly mixed feelings about Otto Warmbier He used to be with us but now he’s not here He made a bad boo-boo and then got his lumps Now he’s just a symbol for those who loathe Trump”_ ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2019, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206/180 "2019-03-04T15:39:00Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > What leverage would that be? Under what scenario could North Korea ever be made to pay a dime? I would have thought that was obvious. The North Koreans want the lawsuit resolved because they don’t want US courts seizing NK assets frozen in the US, and they want sanctions resolved. So compensation to the Warmbiers becomes a bargaining chip in the Trump-Kim negotiations. In practice, the US would negotiate away the Warmbier’s claim and then compensate them directly (at least that’s how these things have usually have been resolved historically). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/weirdly-mixed-feelings-about-otto-warmbier-american-student-sentenced-to-15-years-in-n-korea/749206.md?page=8)