# Welcome to Libertaria **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [May 25, 2010, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/welcome-to-libertaria/540668 "2010-05-25T03:22:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Ca3799](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9f8e36/32.png) [@Ca3799](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ca3799)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/welcome-to-libertaria/540668/1 "2010-05-25T03:22:51Z")
Welcome to Libertaria! We have low, low taxes, a very small government and lots of freedom. We don’t allow government to intrude on our personal, family or business decisions. But, I’m having some trouble getting my country started. We are going to use US Constitution as our primary founding document, but do we need all of it including all those pesky articles? How much should we pay in taxes and what will those taxes pay for? I’m certain we need a bit of military to protect us from our neighboring countries. I think we need some roads, too. I think some police and maybe some fire departments would serve us well, but I’m not sure about the fire departments. I don’t think we need any schools, though. Also, no governmental welfare programs or social security programs are allowed here. I’m not sure about Veterans programs. don’t they get pain enough when they are in the service? So tax-wise, would 2 or 5% be sufficient? Drugs are legal here, as are guns. All property in the country is privately owned- so no national or city parks. Physical and property crimes will be treated with harsh prison sentences and fines. Before Libertaria was created, I lived in a suburb of a large city. Now I live in a suburb of Libertaria. I want to turn my home into a business; a bar to be specific. Since this is Libertaria and my home is my property, I am within my rights to do this. It’s convenient that I already have a road and some electricity service. Do I need a liquor license? Do I need a health inspector for my hamburger grill? I have decided to not serve red-haired people though. They creep me out. So, what other things can I expect in Libertaria? What would life be like here? ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/welcome-to-libertaria/540668/2 "2010-05-25T03:33:22Z")
Will you make enough to pay your electricity bill? Your road bill? Your police bill? Your water bill? How much and what kind of waste do you create? What do you pay to toss it? Do you recycle? Reuse? Reduce? Do you know your neighbours? What happens when one of them comes after you with a bill for storage of your atmospheric wastes in his air? 'Cause he can smell your grill and it’s interfering with his own cooking. Do you have to pay a toll to every road owner? (I hope some of them will band together for conveniece of billing, if nothing else…) How do you defend your mineral rights? Are you billing the guy a kilometre upstream who’s dumping waste into the creek behind your property? Seems like you’d be best off paying taxes to defend the commons. ---
**Author:** ![elmwood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmwood/32/3060_2.png) [@elmwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elmwood)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/welcome-to-libertaria/540668/3 "2010-05-25T03:57:21Z")
Kind of [like this](http://www.cyburbia.org/gallery/data/504/marsha_49.jpg)? Here’s some images from Marsha/Three Points, an unzoned subdivision in unincorporated Travis County, Texas. It’s surrounded by the City of Austin, which, of course, has zoning. [http://www.cyburbia.org/gallery/data/504/marsha\_02.jpg](http://www.cyburbia.org/gallery/data/504/marsha_02.jpg) [http://www.cyburbia.org/gallery/data/504/marsha\_03.jpg](http://www.cyburbia.org/gallery/data/504/marsha_03.jpg) [http://www.cyburbia.org/gallery/data/504/marsha\_05.jpg](http://www.cyburbia.org/gallery/data/504/marsha_05.jpg) [http://www.cyburbia.org/gallery/data/504/marsha\_04.jpg](http://www.cyburbia.org/gallery/data/504/marsha_04.jpg) [http://www.cyburbia.org/gallery/data/504/marsha\_09.jpg](http://www.cyburbia.org/gallery/data/504/marsha_09.jpg) [http://www.cyburbia.org/gallery/data/504/marsha\_10.jpg](http://www.cyburbia.org/gallery/data/504/marsha_10.jpg) [http://www.cyburbia.org/gallery/data/504/marsha\_11.jpg](http://www.cyburbia.org/gallery/data/504/marsha_11.jpg) [http://www.cyburbia.org/gallery/data/504/marsha\_17.jpg](http://www.cyburbia.org/gallery/data/504/marsha_17.jpg) [http://www.cyburbia.org/gallery/data/504/marsha\_20.jpg](http://www.cyburbia.org/gallery/data/504/marsha_20.jpg) [http://www.cyburbia.org/gallery/data/504/marsha\_21.jpg](http://www.cyburbia.org/gallery/data/504/marsha_21.jpg) [http://www.cyburbia.org/gallery/data/504/marsha\_26.jpg](http://www.cyburbia.org/gallery/data/504/marsha_26.jpg) [http://www.cyburbia.org/gallery/data/504/marsha\_28.jpg](http://www.cyburbia.org/gallery/data/504/marsha_28.jpg) [http://www.cyburbia.org/gallery/data/504/marsha\_27.jpg](http://www.cyburbia.org/gallery/data/504/marsha_27.jpg) [http://www.cyburbia.org/gallery/data/504/marsha\_33.jpg](http://www.cyburbia.org/gallery/data/504/marsha_33.jpg) [http://www.cyburbia.org/gallery/data/504/marsha\_34.jpg](http://www.cyburbia.org/gallery/data/504/marsha_34.jpg) [http://www.cyburbia.org/gallery/data/504/marsha\_35.jpg](http://www.cyburbia.org/gallery/data/504/marsha_35.jpg) [http://www.cyburbia.org/gallery/data/504/marsha\_39.jpg](http://www.cyburbia.org/gallery/data/504/marsha_39.jpg) [http://www.cyburbia.org/gallery/data/504/marsha\_42.jpg](http://www.cyburbia.org/gallery/data/504/marsha_42.jpg) [http://www.cyburbia.org/gallery/data/504/marsha\_44.jpg](http://www.cyburbia.org/gallery/data/504/marsha_44.jpg) [http://www.cyburbia.org/gallery/data/504/marsha\_55.jpg](http://www.cyburbia.org/gallery/data/504/marsha_55.jpg) [http://www.cyburbia.org/gallery/data/504/marsha\_57.jpg](http://www.cyburbia.org/gallery/data/504/marsha_57.jpg) [http://www.cyburbia.org/gallery/data/504/marsha\_56.jpg](http://www.cyburbia.org/gallery/data/504/marsha_56.jpg) [http://www.cyburbia.org/gallery/data/504/marsha\_58.jpg](http://www.cyburbia.org/gallery/data/504/marsha_58.jpg) [http://www.cyburbia.org/gallery/data/504/marsha\_65.jpg](http://www.cyburbia.org/gallery/data/504/marsha_65.jpg) Yeah, there’s so many photos because the neighborhood is _that_ bad. How’s you like to have [this across the street from you](http://www.cyburbia.org/gallery/data/504/marsha_60.jpg)? The area used to be residential. Its now a mix of residential and mechanical commercial uses, thanks to the lack of zoning or any kind of restrictive covenants. Practically every house in the neighborhood is now next to some massive metal building or storage yard. Would your Libertaria prohibit HOAs, or private land use covenants similar to what’s used in unzoned Houston to impose minimal land use control to prevent industrial intrusions into residential areas? ---
**Author:** ![Ca3799](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9f8e36/32.png) [@Ca3799](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ca3799)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/welcome-to-libertaria/540668/4 "2010-05-25T14:17:13Z")
Thanks, Elmwood. My thread was prompted by a discussion on anothe MB with a libertarian anarchist who was telling me about his philosophy, his bad neighbor, and how he wanted the freedom to open a bar in his home (a suburb of Houston), etc. He was also griping about his neighbor who has not done any improvements to her home in 25 years and how this adversely affects his home values. I asked him why, in Libertaria, what his neighbor did had anything to do with him since she had the freedom to sully the neighborhood in any way she saw fit, being that property and freedom are king. I just wanted to play around with the idea of life in Lebertaria to see what it looked like. So far, it’s been pretty unattractive! LOL! ---
**Author:** ![edinbourgeoise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecb155/32.png) [@edinbourgeoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/edinbourgeoise)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/welcome-to-libertaria/540668/5 "2010-05-25T14:37:39Z")
I am already interested in the possibility of claiming refugee status from this anti-utopian nightmare. ---
**Author:** ![edinbourgeoise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecb155/32.png) [@edinbourgeoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/edinbourgeoise)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/welcome-to-libertaria/540668/6 "2010-05-25T14:40:19Z")
Actually, the country you’re looking for may be called Belgium. I seem to remember that they have a noticeable lack of planning regulations, causing factories to be built next to fruit farms in the middle of nowhere. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/welcome-to-libertaria/540668/7 "2010-05-25T15:22:43Z")
I think I’ve just become ok with a 50% flat tax and massive government… ---
**Author:** ![drillrod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@drillrod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drillrod)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/welcome-to-libertaria/540668/8 "2010-05-25T18:02:17Z")
Finally, a country where I can buy a plot of land and start my hog farm, free from government interference! Screw you neighbors, freedom of ownership is the cornerstone of our society. ---
**Author:** ![Alpha\_Twit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alpha_twit/32/265_2.png) [@Alpha\_Twit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alpha_Twit)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/welcome-to-libertaria/540668/9 "2010-05-25T18:05:59Z")
And I always wanted to have ‘Free Beer and Air Horn Night’ at my backyard demolition derby. Now I have a place for that. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/welcome-to-libertaria/540668/10 "2010-05-25T18:18:23Z")
Most Libertarians I know are almost erotically fond of the idea of a citizen militia to handle national defense. They cite Switzerland as a wonderful example, though Switzerland practices conscription. So, I think you should follow a modified Swiss example for your military needs. 1. Situate Libertaria in a resource poor area with difficult terrain (mountains preferred) that is not worth the effort to conquer. 2. Strongly urge (conscription = slavery!) all your adult citizens to be members of the militia with regularly scheduled training. How to pay for the weapons, ammunition, and other stuff without taxes of some sort is your problem. 3. Be somewhat neutral in your dealings with beligerent nations. 4. Find some niche to fill in the international food-chain where much larger, more powerful nations consider it expedient to let you survive. Anonymous banking, intermediary trading partner in embargoed goods, and similar are ideas to consider. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/welcome-to-libertaria/540668/11 "2010-05-25T18:19:18Z")
I predict Libertaria lasts until the morning after the first snowfall when everybody wakes up and realizes nobody plowed the streets during the night. ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/welcome-to-libertaria/540668/12 "2010-05-25T18:22:45Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I predict Libertaria lasts until the morning after the first snowfall when everybody wakes up and realizes nobody plowed the streets during the night. You would say that, fellow WNYer. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/welcome-to-libertaria/540668/13 "2010-05-25T21:21:38Z")
You won’t really need fire departments. There are still parts of the U.S. served by volunteer and subscription departments. Volunteer departments are cool, because they’re neighbors helping neighbors. Subscription departments are cool, too, because you don’t have to subscribe. If your house/bar catches on fire, and you haven’t subscribed, the subscription department will show up immediately to save your neighbor’s house (who did pay the fee.) Why in the name of a free market would you need a liquor license? The manufacture and sale of alcohol is completely unregulated in Libertaria. As is the manufacture and sale of drugs, for that matter (in case you want to expand your product offerings.) Just choose your supplier wisely, since some of them have been known to cut the good booze with antifreeze. After a couple of customers go blind, you’ll know which is which. Looking at this [pie chart of the federal budget](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_United_States_federal_budget), it looks like you can cut all the mandatory budgeted programs, and most of the discretionary spending, as well. What you’ll be left with is a Department of Defense ($663.7 billion), State ($51.7 billion), Homeland Security ($42.7 billion) and Treasury ($13.3 billion). Of course Libertaria’s programs won’t be nearly as ambitious as the United States’, so you can probably whack at least 50 percent out of those budgets. Which leaves you with a total national budget of $385.7 billion. Based on the U.S. population, that works out to a little more than $1,000 per head. It will be a flat tax, of course; a progressive tax merely punishes individual achievement. And say hello to your new neighbors. **Drillrod** and his hog farm will be on your left, and I like that property on your right for my nuclear waste storage facility. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Poster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Happy\_Poster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Poster)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/welcome-to-libertaria/540668/14 "2010-05-25T21:27:50Z")
This is a ridiculous caricature of a serious political philosophy. I could make very similar ones of socialism, except socialist countries already did it for me 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/welcome-to-libertaria/540668/15 "2010-05-25T22:19:25Z")
Seriously impractical. Seriously unpopular. Seriously irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![WarmNPrickly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d78d45/32.png) [@WarmNPrickly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WarmNPrickly)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/welcome-to-libertaria/540668/16 "2010-05-25T22:28:32Z")
Well socialism and libertarianism have a lot in common, in that they are both utopian ideals completely devoid of reality. If you consider socialism to be a serious political philosophy, then yes, libertarianism is probably a a serious political philosophy. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/welcome-to-libertaria/540668/17 "2010-05-25T23:02:04Z")
> [@Angry Lurker](#): > > This is a ridiculous caricature of a serious political philosophy. > > I could make very similar ones of socialism, except socialist countries already did it for me 🙂 Marxism was serious too, but as you acknowledge, it turned out to be bollocks. If you do feel this philosophy to be valid (as opposed to merely serious), could you describe your version of Libertaria? Is it a version of our current system with a few Libertarian tweaks, or is it a fundamental redesign of society? Please expand on your comments. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2010, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/welcome-to-libertaria/540668/18 "2010-05-25T23:08:32Z")
Forget Marsha. I’m thinking more along the lines of [Kowloon Walled City](http://zeekeekee.wordpress.com/2009/05/05/kowloon-walled-city-something-out-of-a-science-fiction-story/). ---
**Author:** ![Ca3799](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9f8e36/32.png) [@Ca3799](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ca3799)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/welcome-to-libertaria/540668/19 "2010-05-27T10:56:57Z")
Well, I showed my Libertarian friend this thread and invited him over, but he will not come here to support his position. He stated I have my facts wrong (but did not specify which facts) and referred me to the Libertarian Party website, which is where I got most of my information for the topic. He did, however, challenge me to a debate of Libertarianism…if I allow him to post it on YouTube. I don’t think I’ll indulge is Libertarian fetish anymore. The pictures of the Kowloon Walled City was terrifying. It looks exactly like the place Hobbes described where life was ‘nasty, brutish, and short’. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/welcome-to-libertaria/540668/20 "2010-05-27T13:15:55Z")
> [@](#): > > This is a ridiculous caricature of a serious political philosophy. > > I could make very similar ones of socialism, except socialist countries already did it for me That’s one of the biggest problems with libertarianism. Its supporters want to compare their theories against everyone else’s real world experience. Why should we assume real world libertarianism would resemble theoretical libertarianism anymore than real world socialism resembles theoretical socialism? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/welcome-to-libertaria/540668.md?page=2)