# Welcoming His4ever, Our First Actual "Chick" Chick! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 22, 2002, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/welcoming-his4ever-our-first-actual-chick-chick/125069 "2002-08-22T13:28:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Kirkland1244](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kirkland1244](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kirkland1244)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/welcoming-his4ever-our-first-actual-chick-chick/125069/181 "2002-08-27T20:56:34Z")
Fishermen _petition_ their patron saint. They do not, in the modern sense of the word, pray to them. Unless you mean “pray” in the general “ask” definition, in which case you pray to everyone you ever ask anything of. Kirk ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/welcoming-his4ever-our-first-actual-chick-chick/125069/182 "2002-08-27T21:17:52Z")
Yes, I would say that some ignorant people would probably consider themselves to worship the saints. And yes, many so-called saints never even existed, or were older pagan gods. At least, some of the early ones. That doesn’t change official Catholic doctrine, however. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/welcoming-his4ever-our-first-actual-chick-chick/125069/183 "2002-08-27T21:32:10Z")
“That doesn’t change official Catholic doctrine, however” It however does call into question how much Catholic practice follows Catholic doctrine. ---
**Author:** ![Squish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8797f3/32.png) [@Squish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squish)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/welcoming-his4ever-our-first-actual-chick-chick/125069/184 "2002-08-27T21:40:29Z")
Yes, I know **His** is getting more than she bargained for and has a lot of questions to answer. I’m also feeling a little guilty that she didn’t start this thread but had it…uh, forced upon her (no offense to **Eve** ). As far as saints and images, I think we should bear in mind that until fairly recently, much of the population was illiterate. Icons, statues and other artwork served as visual aids for those unable to read the Bible. Asking Mary or St. Vladimir or whoever to petition God for you was/is no different than asking a priest to pray for you. I know that some Protestant churches have “prayer circles” where they pray for others; is that so different? The decoration of churches, the singing, the incense, are all used to instill a properly reverent frame of mind in the worshippers. In Orthodoxy, God is considered to be _right there in the church with you_, so to make his house as beautiful as possible is considered only right and respectful. ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/welcoming-his4ever-our-first-actual-chick-chick/125069/185 "2002-08-27T23:35:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RickJay \* > \*\* > > Go back and read the OP. \*\* Could someone please tell me what OP means? I’m tired of guessing. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/welcoming-his4ever-our-first-actual-chick-chick/125069/186 "2002-08-27T23:38:05Z")
Opening Post, i.e., the post that started this thread. ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2002, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/welcoming-his4ever-our-first-actual-chick-chick/125069/187 "2002-08-28T00:05:29Z")
I’d like to say that I don’t recall saying Catholics are going hell. Only God knows what a person has done in his or her heart with the provision of salvation He provided. I just said I didn’t agree with some of the teachings of the Catholic church. You are right that I don’t defend my faith well. My beliefs aren’t likely to change, though, as they are deep in my heart and I believe in my heart the Lord has revealed His truth to me about some of these things you’re talking about through His word. But I shouldn’t say much since I can’t answer or don’t know how to answer all your questions. ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2002, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/welcoming-his4ever-our-first-actual-chick-chick/125069/188 "2002-08-28T00:13:15Z")
I’d like to say that I don’t recall saying Catholics are going hell. Only God knows what a person has done in his or her heart with the provision of salvation He provided. I just said I didn’t agree with some of the teachings of the Catholic church. You are right that I don’t defend my faith well. My beliefs aren’t likely to change, though, as they are deep in my heart and I believe in my heart the Lord has revealed His truth to me about some of these things you’re talking about through His word. But I shouldn’t say much since I can’t answer or don’t know how to answer all your questions. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2002, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/welcoming-his4ever-our-first-actual-chick-chick/125069/189 "2002-08-28T01:04:41Z")
So, H4E, you’re saying that the Lord revealed something to you? You’re saying that revelations still occur today? Dang, that’s purt close to what we LDS preach! ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2002, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/welcoming-his4ever-our-first-actual-chick-chick/125069/190 "2002-08-28T01:14:00Z")
So, H4E, you’re saying that the Lord revealed something to you? You’re saying that revelations still occur today? Dang, that’s purt close to what we LDS preach! ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2002, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/welcoming-his4ever-our-first-actual-chick-chick/125069/191 "2002-08-28T01:19:54Z")
So, H4E, you’re saying that the Lord revealed something to you? You’re saying that revelations still occur today? Dang, that’s purt close to what we LDS preach! ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2002, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/welcoming-his4ever-our-first-actual-chick-chick/125069/192 "2002-08-28T01:20:50Z")
There’s nothing wrong with admitting you disagree with the Catholic church-I mean, if you agreed with it completely, then you’d probably be a Catholic. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Kirkland1244](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kirkland1244](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kirkland1244)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2002, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/welcoming-his4ever-our-first-actual-chick-chick/125069/193 "2002-08-28T02:14:32Z")
There’s nothing “wrong” with disagreeing with the Catholic Church (please note the spelling and capitalization, it is a formal name), there is a great deal wrong with supporting Jack T. Chick. His, Jack T. Chick is a liar. A proven liar. A liar even real Protestants spit upon and have nothing to do with. So why do you support him? He lies about Catholicism. Rampantly. He lies about Christian history. He lies about the Bible. He lies about Islam. He lies about Buddhism. He lies about Dungeons & Dragons. He lies about the mythical “rapture.” He lies about everything he discusses. So why do you support him? Why support a proven liar, a disreputable man that no honorable person would ever have anything to do with? Kirk ---
**Author:** ![ResIpsaLoquitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b3f665/32.png) [@ResIpsaLoquitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ResIpsaLoquitor)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2002, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/welcoming-his4ever-our-first-actual-chick-chick/125069/194 "2002-08-28T03:28:37Z")
Fine, let me nail it down to this. You have a personal problem. You tell your close Christian friend, “I’m worried about this. Pray for me.” Is that wrong? No. Christians are encouraged to pray for one another. A Christian doesn’t somehow avoid going directly to God by asking a friend to pray for him. If anything, I’d wager it increases God’s presence, since Christ said “Where two or three are gathered in my name, I am present.” Are we ok with this so far? Christians can ask other Christians to pray for them? Good. So what’s wrong with asking Christians _in heaven_ to do the same? Because that’s what Sainthood comes down to. It’s the church’s declaration that someone is in heaven. …you may, of course, disagree on whether 1) people go to heaven when they die, or whether they’re all “asleep” until the Last Judgment, and whether 2) the Catholic Church has the power to make a declaration that someone is in heaven. (And note this does **not not not** mean the Church determines who is in or isn’t in heaven. It **does** mean that through miracles, signs and investigation, the Church can make a statement that it has knowledge of a saint’s arrival in heaven.) But assuming those two things **are** the case…then me praying to St. Thomas More that I might pass the bar exam or to the Virgin Mary that my mother’s cancer doesn’t come back has **no** practical difference between me going to Polycarp or Guinistasia or what-have-you with the same prayer request. ---
**Author:** ![JimSox5](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5a626/32.png) [@JimSox5](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JimSox5)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2002, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/welcoming-his4ever-our-first-actual-chick-chick/125069/195 "2002-08-28T04:35:57Z")
I don’t remember who said it, but, **CATHOLICS DO NOT WORSHIP MARY! WHAT DO WE HAVE TO DO TO BEAT THAT INTO YOUR HEADS!?!?!?** okay, my rant is over. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2002, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/welcoming-his4ever-our-first-actual-chick-chick/125069/196 "2002-08-28T05:22:57Z")
Just got this in my e-mail (I subscribe to a Buddhist “Daily Wisdom” e-mail list: > [@](#): > > To probe deep into your roots: > The ignorance and confusion are you yourself. > The preconceptions which are yourself > Are envoys and agents sent by yourself. > > -“Drinking the Mountain Stream: Songs of Tibet’s Beloved Saint, Milarepa” There’s a message in there, no doubt. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2002, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/welcoming-his4ever-our-first-actual-chick-chick/125069/197 "2002-08-28T05:25:20Z")
And here’s a message to any mod who wishes to assist: Please be so kind as to add a close parenthesis above between _list_ and \*:[/]. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2002, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/welcoming-his4ever-our-first-actual-chick-chick/125069/198 "2002-08-28T05:31:21Z")
Drat. I give up on coding. At least for tonight. ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2002, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/welcoming-his4ever-our-first-actual-chick-chick/125069/199 "2002-08-28T12:03:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\*Opening Post, i.e., the post that started this thread. \*\* Thanks ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2002, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/welcoming-his4ever-our-first-actual-chick-chick/125069/200 "2002-08-28T12:17:21Z")
**His4ever:** I appreciate that you are probably having a little trouble keeping up with the barrage of posts in a number of threads, but I would be most grateful if you would be kind enough to fill us in on the details of how and why you came to occupy the position of believing that (your interpretation of) the Bible is the absolute word of God or indeed that the Bible itself is completely reliable and literal (if indeed this is your view). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/welcoming-his4ever-our-first-actual-chick-chick/125069.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/welcoming-his4ever-our-first-actual-chick-chick/125069.md?page=11)