# Well..another scapegoat in the torture scandal has been found guilty. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 14, 2005, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-another-scapegoat-in-the-torture-scandal-has-been-found-guilty/284785 "2005-01-14T23:10:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2005, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-another-scapegoat-in-the-torture-scandal-has-been-found-guilty/284785/21 "2005-01-15T15:39:56Z")
As likely as not, Spec. Graner might be a Democrat. Democrats are well known for their amazing capacity to loose their minds and join the Dark Side on a moment’s notice. Just recently, we were treated to a spectacle where **rjung** (normally the epitome of gentle demeanour) threatened to take ‘clue by four’ to his opponent. And just look at the transformations of **Diogenes** , whenever shrubbery is mentioned. I may go on… I’d like to see Terry McAuliffe to be held responsible for this. ---
**Author:** ![threemae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f9b8f/32.png) [@threemae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/threemae)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2005, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-another-scapegoat-in-the-torture-scandal-has-been-found-guilty/284785/22 "2005-01-15T15:57:58Z")
> [@paperbackwriter](#): > > No “I was just following orders” defense if the subordinate knows the orders are unlawful. Graner’s defense never attempted to show that he thought they were lawful. Actually, Graner’s lawyers did exactly that. Given the Bush admin’s affinity for “stress positions” and other practices with dubious human rights implications and has argued extensively that they are doing nothing wrong, Graner’s lawyers attempted to argue that Graner believed that what he was doing was in fact legal. ---
**Author:** ![Spree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@Spree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spree)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2005, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-another-scapegoat-in-the-torture-scandal-has-been-found-guilty/284785/23 "2005-01-15T16:04:17Z")
From the above article: > [@](#): > > She said she has received phone calls from people who believe he’s a hero. “To me, he’ll always be a hero.” The hell? ---
**Author:** ![Fuji\_Kitakyusho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f0a364/32.png) [@Fuji\_Kitakyusho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji_Kitakyusho)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2005, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-another-scapegoat-in-the-torture-scandal-has-been-found-guilty/284785/24 "2005-01-15T16:34:20Z")
> [@Reeder](#): > > Who supervised these guys? Well, if you follow the chain of command all the way up, they have a commander-in-chief who is… oh, right. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2005, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-another-scapegoat-in-the-torture-scandal-has-been-found-guilty/284785/25 "2005-01-15T16:58:35Z")
It’s also more than possible that the ‘intelligence officers’ were CIA operatives, which means the military court can’t touch them. This is speculation, but based on past wars with heavy CIA involvement in military exercises, not a tinfoil hat issue. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2005, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-another-scapegoat-in-the-torture-scandal-has-been-found-guilty/284785/26 "2005-01-15T17:29:41Z")
> [@Little Nemo](#): > > The rational part of my mind asks if things make sense. I’ve read that the prison where these abuses were exposed was not a prison for military prisoners - the people they had were regular criminals. So there was no reason to think these people would have any special knowledge of the activities of terrorists, insurgents, or the military. Even if you believe that American intelligence officers are willing to systematically torture prisoners for information, you’ll have to concede they’d be more interested in torturing people who have useful information. Actually, according to respected journalist Sy Hersch, the whole CIA torture program WAS transferred to Abu Ghraib. To wit: > [@](#): > > Hersh provides details of how President Bush signed off on the establishment of a secret unit that was given advance approval to kill or capture and interrogate “high-value” suspects – considered by many to be in defiance of international law – an officially “unacknowledged” program that was eventually transferred wholesale from Guantánamo to the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq. And note that it’s authorized “from the top” as it were. So, Graner wasn’t SO isolated from that torture program, was he? [Here’s the link](http://archive.salon.com/news/feature/2004/09/13/torture/) I got the quote from. It’s from Salon, so you’ll have to watch an ad to get a free pass if you want to view it. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2005, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-another-scapegoat-in-the-torture-scandal-has-been-found-guilty/284785/27 "2005-01-15T18:08:36Z")
> [@chique](#): > > It really doesn’t matter. One of the things that was drilled into my head during boot camp was that I was required to follow all **lawful** orders. The orders Graner followed were not lawful. He was not obligated to follow those orders and, indeed, should have reported those illegal orders up his chain of command. He chose not to and is suffering the consequences. > > It would be nice to see the person who gave the orders suffer the same consequences but I’m not going to hold my breath. ☹ I received the same training. There was a definite line across which we were not to go. Graner, if he acted on his own (which I do not belive) should pay. If a superior was giving him direction, Graner and that superior should pay. Finally, if his superiors did not know (which I don’t believe), they should all pay. It is THE JOB of any NCO or officer to know what is going on in his area/command. ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2005, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-another-scapegoat-in-the-torture-scandal-has-been-found-guilty/284785/28 "2005-01-15T23:27:09Z")
[http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/01/15/graner.court.martial/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/01/15/graner.court.martial/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2005, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-another-scapegoat-in-the-torture-scandal-has-been-found-guilty/284785/29 "2005-01-15T23:38:08Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > It is THE JOB of any NCO or officer to know what is going on in his area/command. This was, until recently, my impression of military responsibility and command. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-another-scapegoat-in-the-torture-scandal-has-been-found-guilty/284785.md?page=1)