# "Well, Doc, he's green and squishy and covered in flies...": is this standard police procedure? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 20, 2010, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-doc-hes-green-and-squishy-and-covered-in-flies-is-this-standard-police-procedure/543832 "2010-06-20T02:54:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-doc-hes-green-and-squishy-and-covered-in-flies-is-this-standard-police-procedure/543832/1 "2010-06-20T02:54:45Z")
I’m somewhat baffled by a gruesome item in the local newspaper. According the the Police Blotter > [@](#): > > On June 6 at 12:16 p.m., Officers Smith and Jones responded to an apartment building on Fake Name Road for a reported foul odor and concentration of flies. The officers forced their way into an apartment and discovered the body of a man in the late stages of decomposition. **Medics were notified and the man was pronounced dead on arrival.** The body was transported to the medical examiner’s office as no signs of trauma or natural causes were discovered. Police are currently awaiting the results of a toxicology report. Is this standard procedure? I mean, I think even a layman could diagnose “falling apart and smelling really bad” on their own. Are the medics supposed to examine every corpse happened upon, even when it’s very clearly obviously dead? ---
**Author:** ![cornflakes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9d8465/32.png) [@cornflakes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cornflakes)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-doc-hes-green-and-squishy-and-covered-in-flies-is-this-standard-police-procedure/543832/2 "2010-06-20T03:18:20Z")
WAG: it’s a safe bet that most people in the Western world are handled by an EMT or other health professional on their way to the funeral home. It makes sense to have a trained person make the announcement. ---
**Author:** ![ataraxy22](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ataraxy22/32/307_2.png) [@ataraxy22](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ataraxy22)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-doc-hes-green-and-squishy-and-covered-in-flies-is-this-standard-police-procedure/543832/3 "2010-06-20T03:23:40Z")
that’s not a pulse, it’s a maggot! ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-doc-hes-green-and-squishy-and-covered-in-flies-is-this-standard-police-procedure/543832/4 "2010-06-20T03:24:35Z")
I believe it’s standard law (in the US, at least) that any death due to unknown circumstances must be investigated by the Coroner or the Medical Examiner (which may or may not be the same person). I know that when my father died, he was found in his bed having died at some point during the night. But since he had been in a long term care facility suffering from COPD, the sheriff (who was also the Coroner in this case) determined that there were no ‘unusual circumstances’ so no investigation into the death needed to occur. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-doc-hes-green-and-squishy-and-covered-in-flies-is-this-standard-police-procedure/543832/5 "2010-06-20T03:31:09Z")
Presumably, the paramedics brought an ambulance with them, which is a better designed vehicle for transport of a dead body than a police car. The toxicology report was ordered to attempt to determine the cause of death, as no signs of “trauma or natural causes were discovered”. If there were signs of trauma, they’d leave the body in place long enough for evidence to be gathered and pictures taken, as the place and position of the body might lead to important information. The paramedic sitting next to me confirms that paramedics can, if in contact with a doctor, determine that someone is dead, especially when in an “advanced state of decomposition”. So there was no need for a doc to come to the scene. ---
**Author:** ![IAmNotSpartacus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/cc9497/32.png) [@IAmNotSpartacus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IAmNotSpartacus)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-doc-hes-green-and-squishy-and-covered-in-flies-is-this-standard-police-procedure/543832/6 "2010-06-20T03:31:45Z")
Dumb as it may sound, I believe the reason is that in some places police cannot declare someone to be dead, apparently in this case so far as not even when it is plainly obvious. I believe the duty will fall upon a paramedic or a doctor, in this case. ---
**Author:** ![Wile\_E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c37758/32.png) [@Wile\_E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wile_E)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-doc-hes-green-and-squishy-and-covered-in-flies-is-this-standard-police-procedure/543832/7 "2010-06-20T04:22:41Z")
Wait a minute, green, squishy and flies? Is this about the chimp and frog again? ---
**Author:** ![St.Urho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8e7dd6/32.png) [@St.Urho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/St.Urho)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-doc-hes-green-and-squishy-and-covered-in-flies-is-this-standard-police-procedure/543832/8 "2010-06-20T04:32:08Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Presumably, the paramedics brought an ambulance with them, which is a better designed vehicle for transport of a dead body than a police car. > > The toxicology report was ordered to attempt to determine the cause of death, as no signs of “trauma or natural causes were discovered”. If there were signs of trauma, they’d leave the body in place long enough for evidence to be gathered and pictures taken, as the place and position of the body might lead to important information. > > The paramedic sitting next to me confirms that paramedics can, if in contact with a doctor, determine that someone is dead, especially when in an “advanced state of decomposition”. So there was no need for a doc to come to the scene. Most of this depends on local protocols. In Denver, I can pronounce someone under most circumstances without calling medical control. I only need to call if we’ve started resuscitation and need to stop. We also never transport dead bodies in the ambulance. Most places I know of don’t. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-doc-hes-green-and-squishy-and-covered-in-flies-is-this-standard-police-procedure/543832/9 "2010-06-20T04:57:21Z")
I remember once reading some British guidelines that said that the higher-up kind of confirmation of decease (a doctor, or whatever the case was) was not required in certain cases, with a list provided including decapitation, advanced decomposition, destruction of large parts of the body, and various other scary things. ---
**Author:** ![UncleFred](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f0a364/32.png) [@UncleFred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleFred)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-doc-hes-green-and-squishy-and-covered-in-flies-is-this-standard-police-procedure/543832/10 "2010-06-20T12:16:21Z")
> [@IAmNotSpartacus](#): > > Dumb as it may sound, I believe the reason is that in some places police cannot declare someone to be dead, apparently in this case so far as not even when it is plainly obvious. I believe the duty will fall upon a paramedic or a doctor, in this case. I believe its that way here in MA and may have some logic behind it - based on the role of police as enforcers of the law, while not being judges. ---
**Author:** ![PoorYorick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@PoorYorick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PoorYorick)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-doc-hes-green-and-squishy-and-covered-in-flies-is-this-standard-police-procedure/543832/11 "2010-06-21T13:39:34Z")
> [@IAmNotSpartacus](#): > > Dumb as it may sound, I believe the reason is that in some places police cannot declare someone to be dead, apparently in this case so far as not even when it is plainly obvious. I believe the duty will fall upon a paramedic or a doctor, in this case. During my EMT training about 30 years ago, we were taught that there were very specific instances when we could assume someone was dead and not have to start resuscitation. These instances were pretty frickin’ obvious, such as decapitation or decomposition. So, yeah, I think this guy would qualify. As an aside, you see all those TV shows where someone drops from a heart attack or gunshot wound or whatever, then some clown with no medical training bends down, feels the general area of the carotid, and pronounces “He’s dead”? If that’s me that drops, PLEASE perform at least a few minutes of CPR first, OK? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-doc-hes-green-and-squishy-and-covered-in-flies-is-this-standard-police-procedure/543832/12 "2010-06-21T14:25:11Z")
> [@St.Urho](#): > > We also never transport dead bodies in the ambulance. Most places I know of don’t. What do you transport them in? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-doc-hes-green-and-squishy-and-covered-in-flies-is-this-standard-police-procedure/543832/13 "2010-06-21T14:50:56Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > What do you transport them in? When a body is pronounced unresuscitatibly dead by someone authorized to do so for that legal jurisdiction, the EMT/rescue squad/paramedic does not transport them at all. Instead, the coroner’s office (if autopsy is indicated) or mortician (if it is not) arranges to have them transported by hearse or equivalent. There’s an unspoken assumption being made by those responding with “when do you take action or not” responses – and that is that there needs to be a formal determination by someone legally (and usually medically) equipped to make that determination, that what had been a lving human being is now deceased. Up until the declaration of death (not necessarily the production of a death certficiate) Joe Doakes was a living human being at law, entitled to receive his monthly Social Security check if he was old enough, entitled to make legal decisions about his medical care if capable, and to have his next of kin do so if he is comatose or unconscious, the legal owner or tenant of his residence, etc. There needs to be a point at which he transitions _at law_ from “living” to “dead” – and while any nine-year-old can say that that rotting corpse is obviously dead, it’s the intermediate steps in the spectrum from “awake and alert” through “stunned” to “unconscious”, “comatose”, “not breathing”, “flatline EKG”, to “recently dead” and then “long-time undiscovered corpse” that require trained observers to decide. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-doc-hes-green-and-squishy-and-covered-in-flies-is-this-standard-police-procedure/543832/14 "2010-06-21T15:24:55Z")
It has to be a trick. I mean, the Fake Name Road is a dead giveaway! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![PoorYorick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@PoorYorick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PoorYorick)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-doc-hes-green-and-squishy-and-covered-in-flies-is-this-standard-police-procedure/543832/15 "2010-06-21T18:06:33Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > – and while any nine-year-old can say that that rotting corpse is obviously dead, it’s the intermediate steps in the spectrum from “awake and alert” through “stunned” to “unconscious”, “comatose”, “not breathing”, “flatline EKG”, to “recently dead” and then “long-time undiscovered corpse” that require trained observers to decide. What about _mostly_ dead? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-doc-hes-green-and-squishy-and-covered-in-flies-is-this-standard-police-procedure/543832/16 "2010-06-21T18:13:43Z")
> [@PoorYorick](#): > > What about _mostly_ dead? Only in states that recognize Florinese law as precedent. ---
**Author:** ![gotpasswords](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c57346/32.png) [@gotpasswords](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gotpasswords)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-doc-hes-green-and-squishy-and-covered-in-flies-is-this-standard-police-procedure/543832/17 "2010-06-21T20:30:37Z")
Same sort of things happens with drinkers. Any nine year old kid can look at someone staggering down the street and stinking of gin and old beer and say “He’s drunk!” but depending on the state, only a physician can formally say that a person is intoxicated. As a result, you’ll see ER nurses charting things like “apparent ETOHism” or “smells of alcohol” as these are not official diagnoses. Any schmoe can say someone’s a drunk, but it takes a physician and a blood alcohol content test to confirm it. BTW, a critical care nurse (my former neighbor) told me that that they once charted an unfortunate individual as “patient demonstrates no standard signs of life” as they were unable to say “He’d dead, Jim” without that MD after their name. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-doc-hes-green-and-squishy-and-covered-in-flies-is-this-standard-police-procedure/543832/18 "2010-06-21T20:59:57Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > When a body is pronounced unresuscitatibly dead by someone authorized to do so for that legal jurisdiction, the EMT/rescue squad/paramedic does not transport them at all. Instead, the coroner’s office (if autopsy is indicated) or mortician (if it is not) arranges to have them transported by hearse or equivalent… Both of my grandmothers died at home after a long illness. One was having a hear attack in the middle of the night and she realized “this is it” and made Mom call her doctor and whatever family was close by instead of taking her to hospital. The paramedics showed up before her doctor, but she was dead by then. He arrived, formally prounced her, and the ambulance took her to the funeral home. The other grandmother died the day after Thanksgiving after being semi-comatose for a few days. The hospice nurse pronouced her dead then the funeral home came and picked her up (in a transport van, not the hearse). ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-doc-hes-green-and-squishy-and-covered-in-flies-is-this-standard-police-procedure/543832/19 "2010-06-22T03:11:45Z")
> [@PoorYorick](#): > > What about _mostly_ dead? Better call in a professional: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MIwzPOWHbw](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MIwzPOWHbw) ETA: Best username/post combination in quite awhile, there, **Yorick**! ---
**Author:** ![St.Urho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8e7dd6/32.png) [@St.Urho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/St.Urho)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2010, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-doc-hes-green-and-squishy-and-covered-in-flies-is-this-standard-police-procedure/543832/20 "2010-06-23T08:25:12Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > What do you transport them in? Like **Polycarp** said, _we_ don’t transport them anywhere. Either the Medical Examiner’s office transports them or a funeral home does. I really don’t know what they use. If I pronounce someone, I’ll almost always leave the scene in control of the police, who do their investigation, then turn the scene over to whoever’s taking the body. The only exception to this is a death that happens at a medical care facility. That doesn’t usually involve the cops. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-doc-hes-green-and-squishy-and-covered-in-flies-is-this-standard-police-procedure/543832.md?page=2)