# Well, here it is...The Draft
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-here-it-is-the-draft/241130
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [April 21, 2004, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-here-it-is-the-draft/241130 "2004-04-21T00:12:53Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)
#### Post date: [April 21, 2004, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-here-it-is-the-draft/241130/1 "2004-04-21T00:12:53Z")
[Here’s the article](http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1521&u=/afp/20040420/pl_afp/us_iraq_military_draft&printer=1)
Now, before anyone decides to throw out something about this being Election Year Democratic Posturing, keep in mind that the guy being quoted is a Republican Senator.
So, the draft. Is it necessary for “success” in Iraq?
Do we even know what “success in Iraq” is?
Does this mean that GWB and his administration care so much about Iraq (whether their reasons are as stated, giving sweetheart jobs to their friends the defense contractors, whether it’s because they’re pure evil, etc etc) that they’re willing to toss an election over it?
-Joe
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### Author:  [@Airblairxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airblairxxx)
#### Post date: [April 21, 2004, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-here-it-is-the-draft/241130/2 "2004-04-21T00:30:36Z")
This isn’t the first time this has been brought up with regard to Iraq.
There’s a reason for all the recruiting ads you’ve been seeing; the military is short on manpower, what with the deployments in Iraq and Afghanistan.
> [@](#):
>
> Does this mean that GWB and his administration care so much about Iraq (whether their reasons are as stated, giving sweetheart jobs to their friends the defense contractors, whether it’s because they’re pure evil, etc etc) that they’re willing to toss an election over it?
If they do reinstate the draft, Kerry wins in a walkover. And my respect for Gubya will actually increase substantially. He’s always been about power, IMO; if he does something like this because he wants to make sure Iraq doesn’t collapse–despite the political costs at home–he will have earned my grudging respect.
Assuming he loses in November, of course.
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### Author:  [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)
#### Post date: [April 21, 2004, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-here-it-is-the-draft/241130/3 "2004-04-21T00:42:28Z")
The guy’s rationale for the draft, i.e. burden sharing, etc. sounds kinda like a casual rant an old-timer might have with his comrades in his local bar.
Maybe enlistment numbers would be a bit higher if they actually paid soldiers a [living wage](http://www.dfas.mil/money/milpay/pay/2004paytable.pdf)?
According to this chart, an E-6 platoon sageant with 6 years in service makes less than $2,400 per month. That’s a guy in charge of a) a platoon of, like 40+ men and/or b) an ass-load of expensive equipment. I do better than that and I’m an automobile insurance claim rep in charge of a PC, a crummy office chair and a 30 year-old desk!
Entry level pay **with a BA** \*might \* be as high as $1,558/month.(E-4 if you go Army).
Maybe if welfare wasn’t an option for the leadership jobs, there might be a little more activity in the recruiter’s offices? OK, not everyone is in it for the money, but I don’t remember a lot of guys who were in it for “the love of the game.”
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### Author:  [@the\_first\_supraliminal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_first_supraliminal)
#### Post date: [April 21, 2004, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-here-it-is-the-draft/241130/4 "2004-04-21T02:20:20Z")
We already have a draft. All those reservists who aren’t coming home are no longer volunteers. They volunteered for two years and got drafted for another six months or more.
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### Author:  [@LilShieste](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilShieste)
#### Post date: [April 21, 2004, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-here-it-is-the-draft/241130/5 "2004-04-21T02:54:17Z")
> [@Airblairxxx](#):
>
> There’s a reason for all the recruiting ads you’ve been seeing; the military is short on manpower, what with the deployments in Iraq and Afghanistan.
I understand what you’re saying, **Airblairxxx** – if the draft _is_ reinstated, it will certainly be because the US is placing so many troops in foreign countries, and calling for more and more.
The thing that really bothers me is… well… it just kinda reminds me of a game of Risk. One in which one player builds up a substantial army, and wins the game just by thowing more and more troops to the front lines, until the enemies’ forces can’t take it anymore.
I understand that Risk is just a game, so maybe I’m taking the analogy a little too far, but… my point is: we’re not talking about little plastic soldiers here.
LilShieste
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [April 21, 2004, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-here-it-is-the-draft/241130/6 "2004-04-21T02:56:43Z")
> [@Merijeek](#):
>
> Does this mean that GWB and his administration care so much about Iraq (whether their reasons are as stated, giving sweetheart jobs to their friends the defense contractors, whether it’s because they’re pure evil, etc etc) that they’re willing to toss an election over it?
No. Do you have any evidence that Bush is in favor of reinstituting the draft?
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### Author:  [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)
#### Post date: [April 21, 2004, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-here-it-is-the-draft/241130/7 "2004-04-21T03:06:56Z")
> [@John Mace](#):
>
> No. Do you have any evidence that Bush is in favor of reinstituting the draft?
He wasn’t very enthused about it when we had it before. No reason to think he’d like it now.
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### Author:  [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)
#### Post date: [April 21, 2004, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-here-it-is-the-draft/241130/8 "2004-04-21T03:27:13Z")
> [@John Mace](#):
>
> No. Do you have any evidence that Bush is in favor of reinstituting the draft?
Did I say I had any evidence that GWB was in favor of instituting a draft?
Point to a single fucking word that indicates that, John.
-Joe
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### Author:  [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)
#### Post date: [April 21, 2004, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-here-it-is-the-draft/241130/9 "2004-04-21T03:30:22Z")
I doubt it. Not any time soon, anyway, sure as hell not during the election season. Last thing he wants is to refocus the spotlight on his own “military career”.
For a draft to be necessary, things would _really_ have to go to shit. If things go that badly, its even money they’ll hand out a bunch of medals, declare victory and run like hell.
I expect you’ll be hearing more about foreign-born Americans serving thier adopted country. Permanent residence upon signing, citizenship if you keep your nose clean say, five years. Three years military service, two if its in a combat zone. And they can dispense with the cheezy macho advertising.
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### Author:  [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)
#### Post date: [April 21, 2004, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-here-it-is-the-draft/241130/10 "2004-04-21T03:45:56Z")
Chuck Hagel has been a refreshingly disloyal republican in regard to the president’s plans for world conquest. He’s not been in the habit of sending up trial balloons for Bush.
[nitpick]
> [@elucidator](#):
>
> thier adopted country.
What is thier, some sort of Nipplensian perversion of God’s Good German?
Can’t you just use ‘there’ like everyone else who gets their they’res screwed up?
[/nitpick]
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### Author:  [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)
#### Post date: [April 21, 2004, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-here-it-is-the-draft/241130/11 "2004-04-21T03:49:00Z")
They’re there. Don’t get all upset.
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [April 21, 2004, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-here-it-is-the-draft/241130/12 "2004-04-21T03:53:18Z")
> [@Merijeek](#):
>
> Point to a single fucking word that indicates that, John.
>
> -Joe
A wee bit defensive, now, aren’t we? I’ll requote from your OP what I quoted in my first post. If you didn’t mean to imply that Bush supported the draft, then you sure as hell worded your OP poorly. Don’t blame me for that! :rolleyes:
> [@Merijeek](#):
>
> Does this mean that GWB and his administration care so much about Iraq (whether their reasons are as stated, giving sweetheart jobs to their friends the defense contractors, whether it’s because they’re pure evil, etc etc) that they’re willing to toss an election over it?
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [April 21, 2004, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-here-it-is-the-draft/241130/13 "2004-04-21T03:57:31Z")
Forgot to add:
Did you mean to imply that Bush would toss the election if he \*\*didn’t \*\* try to get the draft reinstituted. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense…
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### Author:  [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)
#### Post date: [April 21, 2004, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-here-it-is-the-draft/241130/14 "2004-04-21T04:04:10Z")
The Bush Administration could very well find itself in a lose-lose dilemma. Any Administration support for a draft will have serious detrimental effects on Bush’s re-election hopes. At the same time a deteriorating war in Iraq forcing the Administration to delay releasing troops at the end of their tours will backlash against it as well, not just from the electorate but the troops themselves when they do return home.
With deployments being extended, once those troops do come home how many will choose to opt out of their Guard and Reserve units as soon as possible and not re-up? How many potential Guard and Reserve members will not consider joining, out of concern they, too, could be sent on tours that end up being extended?
With no apparent post-war plan for Iraq, other than a 30 June hand-over date, no one to turn over the country on 30 June, and the escalating violence, how long can troops remain in country without fresh replacements? Our troops are the best, yet promises delayed are promises broken. Battle fatigue is a serious issue as well.
The issue of a possible draft needs to be discussed. Congress, the People and the Administration all need to lay it on the table and discuss our options. Regardless of what may be decided, the hidden cards belong to Iraq itself. It makes no difference who has the Ace up their sleeve because Iraq has two Jokers. If the violence of this month extends into May and June will Bush consider his re-election more important than lives, or fall on his sword and support a draft?
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### Author:  [@thirdwarning](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thirdwarning)
#### Post date: [April 21, 2004, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-here-it-is-the-draft/241130/15 "2004-04-21T04:14:37Z")
According to this, it seems they probably don’t really need to draft anybody.
> **[Military Daily News](https://www.military.com/daily-news?ESRC=airforce-a.nl)**
>
> Daily updates of everything that you need know about what is going on in the military community and abroad including military gear and equipment, breaking news, international news and more.
I’ve seen several people here saying that the enlistment numbers are dropping, and then I read a news article saying just the opposite, so I checked to see if I could find anything more. Partly because it seems that every time I turn around another one of my kids’ friends is signing up.
I hope that link works, because I’ve not tried one before.
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### Author:  [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)
#### Post date: [April 21, 2004, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-here-it-is-the-draft/241130/16 "2004-04-21T04:18:38Z")
> [@John Mace](#):
>
> Forgot to add:
>
> Did you mean to imply that Bush would toss the election if he \*\*didn’t \*\* try to get the draft reinstituted. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense…
No…
What I’m saying is that if they reinstate the draft, Bush will lose. I don’t think anyone outside of **Brutus** would think otherwise.
So, to draw a simple diagram for you…
If Bush starts a draft, he will lose. Even in his dim little brain he knows this. So, if he’s willing to throw away his election for the sake of stabilizing Iraq, then he must really, really be devoted to working out the situation in Iraq.
Whether that’s devotion to doing what he believes to be the right thing, or just pigheaded stupidity, it would cost him any chance at the next election.
Besides, the guy who wrote a sentence like this:
Did you mean to imply that Bush would toss the election if he didn’t try to get the draft reinstituted. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense…
probably shouldn’e be critizicing awkward OPs. I’m still not 100% on what the hell you’re trying to say here.
-Joe
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### Author:  [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)
#### Post date: [April 21, 2004, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-here-it-is-the-draft/241130/17 "2004-04-21T05:00:50Z")
Joe, come on now, you’ve got nothing. Some senator says the draft should be reinstituted, Bush says absolutely nothing. And, as has been pointed out, he never will.
So the answer to your question (“Does this mean that…”) is, “Of course they don’t care that much”, or perhaps “What evidence do we have that the Bush administration cares about the draft at all?” If you knew this, don’t pose the question.
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### Author:  [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)
#### Post date: [April 21, 2004, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-here-it-is-the-draft/241130/18 "2004-04-21T05:02:44Z")
[I think Irving Berlin said it best.](http://mywebpages.comcast.net/cpeek001/army.mp3)
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### Author:  [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)
#### Post date: [April 21, 2004, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-here-it-is-the-draft/241130/19 "2004-04-21T06:38:13Z")
Oh, yes! Let’s tack involuntary servitude (isn’t that unconstitutional) onto the laundry list of civil liberties violations that this administration has already committed…
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### Author:  [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)
#### Post date: [April 21, 2004, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-here-it-is-the-draft/241130/20 "2004-04-21T07:16:11Z")
The argument that the draft is involuntary servitude has never passed muster, **her 60jayjay**. It’s been tried, with little to no success.
I personally am very much against the draft. That last thing we need is people who aren’t dedicated to their jobs in the military. Imagine having an aircraft maintainer either not caring about the condition of the aircraft, or worse, intentionally sabotaging it. Not a pretty picture.
The draft is dead. Hopefully it stays that way.
BTW, I’ll stay until I’m either 60, dead, or they throw me out. I’m devoted, and I expect nothing less from my fellow airmen (or soldiers, sailors and Marines, for that matter). They don’t have to stay, but while they’re there they have to do their job to the best of their abilities.
That draft would destroy all that. That’s why it’ll never happen.
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