# Well, I guess the Judge knows best. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 2, 2004, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-i-guess-the-judge-knows-best/248226 "2004-06-02T06:57:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2004, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-i-guess-the-judge-knows-best/248226/21 "2004-06-02T11:20:58Z")
No, but implicit in “Allah is the one true God” is a denial of the Trinity. It isn’t just a matter of language translation. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2004, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-i-guess-the-judge-knows-best/248226/22 "2004-06-02T11:22:46Z")
> [@matt\_mcl](#): > > News to me. Do they think that the French are heretics because they worship Dieu? I’m not talking about _languages_, I’m talking about a difference in _religions_. Come on **matt** , you’re smarter than that. If you have to get snarky, at least give me something that will make me chuckle. Step it up, man! ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2004, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-i-guess-the-judge-knows-best/248226/23 "2004-06-02T11:24:39Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > No, but implicit in “Allah is the one true God” is a denial of the Trinity. It isn’t just a matter of language translation. A post from you I didn’t get mad at. Guess I have to pit myself next! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2004, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-i-guess-the-judge-knows-best/248226/24 "2004-06-02T11:26:35Z")
**duffer** , you’re making up a situation and then telling people how they’d act in it. Exactly what kind of an argument are you expecting here? :smack: > [@](#): > > I’m still waiting for someone to defend the act of having these kids pray to a god they may not worship. Forced on them by a public school teacher. Nobody has. Does that tell you anything? > [@](#): > > This is alomst a pitting of the lefties on these boards that would call for blood if CNN reported that Iraqi schoolkids were told to genuflect and recite the Lord’s Prayer in the interest of teaching them about Christianity. If they were being forced to do it by the United States, you’re damn right people would call for blood. The international blowback would be hideous and we’d probably be met with terrorist attacks for it. I’ll say it for a third time: this was dumb, but the situation you’re proposing is far worse. It was an intellectual exercise, and the Iraq thing would come off as an attempt of a victorious army to force its religion on a conquered people. > [@](#): > > The kids weren’t asked to study prophets, tenets, history, dogma. I don’t think the articles we’ve read support this. The praying and name choosing were one component of their studies. SFGate says “On the final exam, students were asked for a critique of elements of Muslim culture.” I would think that includes other elements of Islam aside from just quoting prayers. They had to pick a new name (not a big deal, I did in in French class), recite Muslim prayers (still ok, but borderline IMHO. You have to know what someone prays and to whom to understand a religion). ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2004, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-i-guess-the-judge-knows-best/248226/25 "2004-06-02T11:28:10Z")
Sorry, I missed a little bit of your post at the end. > [@duffer](#): > > Again, I challenge the Dopers that would call for Rumsfeld’s head if Iraqi’s were even asked to genuflect, to defend this. But for the second time, nobody’s defended this and the situations are only vaguely similar. This tells me that at the very least you’ve misread the people you’re complaining about. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2004, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-i-guess-the-judge-knows-best/248226/26 "2004-06-02T11:37:09Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Sorry, I missed a little bit of your post at the end. > But for the second time, nobody’s defended this and the situations are only vaguely similar. This tells me that at the very least you’ve misread the people you’re complaining about. Eh, I guess I’ve misread about 90% of the pit threads (where I learned the words “fundie” “Pubbie”, etc.) Hell, I’ll probably just let it go. There’s more important things to pay attention to. The purpose of this thread was just to call attention to it. But do you really think the comparisons are vague? You can answer if you want, obviously. But it’s more a rhetorical question. Anyway, have fun with the thread if you want, everyone. I’ll check in time to time to defend myself. I have a feeling I’ll have to. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![bienville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@bienville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bienville)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2004, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-i-guess-the-judge-knows-best/248226/27 "2004-06-02T12:54:52Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > the act of having these kids pray to a god they may not worship. Forced on them by a public school teacher. The kids were not instructed to pray. They were instructed to _recite a prayer_ and to go through the motions of the rituals corresponding to the prayer. There is more to praying than simply reciting a prayer and mimicing ritual. The excercise had the goal of broadening the students’ understanding of a culture different than their own- always a noble educational goal. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2004, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-i-guess-the-judge-knows-best/248226/28 "2004-06-02T13:01:32Z")
> [@bienville](#): > > The kids were not instructed to pray. They were instructed to _recite a prayer_ and to go through the motions of the rituals corresponding to the prayer. I’m half tempted to ask what your defintion of _is_ is. ---
**Author:** ![bienville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@bienville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bienville)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2004, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-i-guess-the-judge-knows-best/248226/29 "2004-06-02T13:16:11Z")
Oh, come on. Do you really believe that prayer is nothing but rattling off memorized verse? Speaking the words means absolutely nothing if you are not seeking a spiritual connection with / spiritual communication with / spiritual devotion to a power that you truly believe in. I was made to memorize several prayers as a child. I could recite close approximations of those prayers to this day. But for me, speaking the words > [@](#): > > Holy Mary, Mother of God > Pray for us sinners would be completely meaningless because I don’t believe that Mary was the Mother of God, I don’t have any interest in whether or not she prays for me, I don’t identify as a “sinner”, and I wouldn’t truly be attempting to communicate with her in the first place. There is a difference between reciting a prayer and praying. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2004, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-i-guess-the-judge-knows-best/248226/30 "2004-06-02T13:22:56Z")
> [@bienville](#): > > Oh, come on. > > Do you really believe that prayer is nothing but rattling off memorized verse? Speaking the words means absolutely nothing if you are not seeking a spiritual connection with / spiritual communication with / spiritual devotion to a power that you truly believe in. > > I was made to memorize several prayers as a child. I could recite close approximations of those prayers to this day. But for me, speaking the words > > would be completely meaningless because I don’t believe that Mary was the Mother of God, I don’t have any interest in whether or not she prays for me, I don’t identify as a “sinner”, and I wouldn’t truly be attempting to communicate with her in the first place. > > There is a difference between reciting a prayer and praying. So it’s safe to assume you would have no problem with an American Middle School teacher having the class perform the Stations of the Cross? Without parental permission? I mean, they’re only reciting it right? Nope, that isn’t right, the kids would have to go through the motions. Kind of like, oh I don’t know, _actually kneeling toward Mecca?_ ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2004, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-i-guess-the-judge-knows-best/248226/31 "2004-06-02T13:54:45Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > So it’s safe to assume you would have no problem with an American Middle School teacher having the class perform the Stations of the Cross? Without parental permission? I mean, they’re only reciting it right? > > Nope, that isn’t right, the kids would have to go through the motions. Kind of like, oh I don’t know, _actually kneeling toward Mecca?_ This wasn’t addressed to me, but I have no problem with showing kids any ritual from any religion as a learning experience, as long as it isn’t something that can be seen as an endorsement or practice of that religion. There’s a pretty clear line between learning about a religion, and endorsing it. A teacher leading a prayer (Muslim or Christian or whatever), where the context is clearly that the teacher sees this as a communication to God/Allah, is very different from simply learning (and yes, even reciting) what Christians and Muslims say in a prayer. One is practicing the religion, one is learning about it. VERY different beasts. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2004, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-i-guess-the-judge-knows-best/248226/32 "2004-06-02T13:58:17Z")
I don’t understand your venom about this, **duffer**. Are you that insecure in your faith that you can’t stand the the thought of your kids being educated about another one? This exercise is borderline but I don’t see an endorsement of Islam by the teacher so there’s no violation. Similar Christian exercises would mostly be redundant since a majority of American kids are already Christian and the point is to teach them something they _don’t_ know, but it would still be legal as long as the teacher never said Christian doctrines were factually true. I could see it working in the context of a comparative religion class which spends time on every major religion and incorporates some role playing (maybe a mock communion for Xians, ligting a menorah for Judaism, trying some meditation for Buddhism, etc.) I’m actually pretty strongly in favor of a world religions class in public schools which would simply teach what each religion _believes_ without taking any position on the validity of any of them. Most Americans are woefully ignorant of any religion- or even denomination- besides their own, and there are a lot of misperceptions, stereotypes and bad information flying around out there. I think it can only be a good thing to force them to look past their own noses at some point in their education and learn that their own magic sky pixie is not the only one in town. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2004, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-i-guess-the-judge-knows-best/248226/33 "2004-06-02T14:03:29Z")
> [@bienville](#): > > Oh, come on. > > Do you really believe that prayer is nothing but rattling off memorized verse? Speaking the words means absolutely nothing if you are not seeking a spiritual connection with / spiritual communication with / spiritual devotion to a power that you truly believe in. > > I was made to memorize several prayers as a child. I could recite close approximations of those prayers to this day. But for me, speaking the words would be completely meaningless because I don’t believe that Mary was the Mother of God, I don’t have any interest in whether or not she prays for me, I don’t identify as a “sinner”, and I wouldn’t truly be attempting to communicate with her in the first place. > > There is a difference between reciting a prayer and praying. The problem with your argument is that, if it were accepted by the courts, public schools could ask students to recite the Lord’s Prayer every morning before class. After all, if the atheists don’t really believe that God exists, then what harm is done by “rattling off memorized verse”? And if the Muslims or Jews don’t profess a Christian faith, then what harm is simply reciting a few words going to do? Similarly with the current debate over the Pledge of Allegiance. If students don’t believe in God, why should they care about whether or not the word is in the Pledge? I think this is a rather dangerous road to go down. With respect to the case in question, i can see that the teacher’s intentions were to promote understanding and empathy rather than to indocrinate the students into the Muslim faith. I also believe that teaching the students about Muslim prayers and rituals constitutes a valid part of such a course unit. Furthermore, if it was made clear to the students that this _was_, in fact, nothing more than a role-playing exercise and was not designed to inculcate religious beliefs or “convert” anyone, i really don’t see the harm. Still, we should appreciate that this line is a rather blurry one, and with the current politics of religious instruction in America, a decision like this is going to be controversial. ---
**Author:** ![Martiju](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e8c25b/32.png) [@Martiju](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martiju)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2004, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-i-guess-the-judge-knows-best/248226/34 "2004-06-02T14:04:31Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > So it’s safe to assume you would have no problem with an American Middle School teacher having the class perform the Stations of the Cross? Without parental permission? I mean, they’re only reciting it right? > > Nope, that isn’t right, the kids would have to go through the motions. Kind of like, oh I don’t know, _actually kneeling toward Mecca?_ FWIW, when I was at secondary school (High School equivalent in the US) we actually visited a mosque and learnt the prayer rituals on a real prayer mat facing towards Mecca and everything. :eek: We also said the Lord’s Prayer every morning and sang hymns to God, and to Jesus. :eek: also. My point is, as has been said above, going through the motions of the ritual and symbolic factions of religions is an education. Better still, learning that there are a whole multitude of religions and exploring the similarities and differences between them is a wholly worthy process which teaches far more than facts - empathy and understanding for a start. I think you can see the difference between this type of activity and one which is intended to indoctrinate…can’t you? ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2004, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-i-guess-the-judge-knows-best/248226/35 "2004-06-02T14:21:33Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > This wasn’t addressed to me, but I have no problem with showing kids any ritual from any religion as a learning experience, as long as it isn’t something that can be seen as an endorsement or practice of that religion. > > There’s a pretty clear line between learning about a religion, and endorsing it. A teacher leading a prayer (Muslim or Christian or whatever), where the context is clearly that the teacher sees this as a communication to God/Allah, is very different from simply learning (and yes, even reciting) what Christians and Muslims say in a prayer. > > One is practicing the religion, one is learning about it. VERY different beasts. **Rev** , I know there is a difference, that’s why I stated earlier in my reply to **Zoe** that this about _politics_, not _religion_. As I also said, I learned about the Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Ancient Greek and Ancient Roman faiths, gods and various other beliefs based on such. Here’s the difference, we learned by studying, not actually going through the motions and declaring Allah being the one and true God. Again, I’ll stick with the politics for this one and ask why the Pledge is being challenged. The student doesn’t have to believe in God to “pretend” to say it. That said, I’ll address the religion part since there’s no way we’re going to avoid it. Whether you believe in any organized religion, those that do take it seriously. As a Catholic, it would be considered a Mortal Sin to pray to Allah. This is big shit in the faith. Really big shit. I don’t see any arguments to justify this based on the following (please give rational thoughts to debunk): 1: You’re Atheist. You disavow any higher being. Hence, shouldn’t be taught. 2: You belong to the ACLU. This was taught in a public school, therefore an easy target of church/state argument. (I still want to know how this not unconstitutional but a donated monument of the 10 Commandments on a lawn is) 3: You have a hard-on for anything Western and if we just learn about Islam and no other religion we’ll all be better people. 4: Those that follow Islam can tell you exactly why they kill civillians in the name of Allah to further thier struggle. (OK, #4 was a dig, but not far off.) ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2004, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-i-guess-the-judge-knows-best/248226/36 "2004-06-02T14:32:40Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > I still want to know how this not unconstitutional but a donated monument of the 10 Commandments on a lawn is From the SF Gate: "That was all within constitutional bounds, Hamilton said, **because the purpose was educational, not religious, and students engaged in no actual religious exercises or demonstrated "any devotional or religious intent.’'** She noted that the state requires all seventh-grade world history courses to include a unit on Muslim history, culture and religion." My bolding. You obviously don’t have to agree with it, but that’s the reason. I don’t see how you can keep asking for it when it’s pretty plainly stated. The Ten Commandments and similar things plainly have a religious purpose. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2004, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-i-guess-the-judge-knows-best/248226/37 "2004-06-02T14:32:49Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I don’t understand your venom about this, **duffer**. Are you that insecure in your faith that you can’t stand the the thought of your kids being educated about another one? Normally I don’t try to lock horns with you, but I’ll go for it here. I’m fully secure in my faith. And my faith says in the first Commandment that I shant worship any false gods. Allah is not my god, and my kids (God willing) will not recognize him either. At least not as prtrayed in the Qu’ran. I plan to be one of the first to teach them of other faiths. They will have full choice of religion, but admittedly I’ll try to keep them in the Church. I have no problem teaching people of other faiths and cultures. Understanding to build understanding and all that. But you’re missing the point of my OP. Let me ask you directly, **DtC**. What would be your opinion if your kid was told, without your knowledge, to walk the Stations, say the Lord’s Prayer, and take communion? Unless I have you pegged totally wrong, you’d open a pit thread. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2004, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-i-guess-the-judge-knows-best/248226/38 "2004-06-02T14:37:43Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > Allah is not my god, and my kids (God willing) will not recognize him either. At least not as prtrayed in the Qu’ran. So you keep saying, but I’m not sure orthodoxy on the Muslim or Christian side agrees with you. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2004, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-i-guess-the-judge-knows-best/248226/39 "2004-06-02T14:38:02Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > From the SF Gate: "That was all within constitutional bounds, Hamilton said, **because the purpose was educational, not religious, and students engaged in no actual religious exercises or demonstrated "any devotional or religious intent.’'** > > She noted that the state requires all seventh-grade world history courses to include a unit on Muslim history, culture and religion." > > My bolding. You obviously don’t have to agree with it, but that’s the reason. I don’t see how you can keep asking for it when it’s pretty plainly stated. The Ten Commandments and similar things plainly have a religious purpose. Some days I should play the X-Box. I know what she said. That was her opinion. I’ve already said many, many times I have no problem with kids learning about different cultures and religions. The problems I have deal with the fact the teacher not only had the kids “mock pray” but to say that there is only one true God, and He is Allah. But as long as she says it, it must be so. Right? ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2004, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-i-guess-the-judge-knows-best/248226/40 "2004-06-02T14:39:19Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > So you keep saying, but I’m not sure orthodoxy on the Muslim or Christian side agrees with you. Well then make sure. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-i-guess-the-judge-knows-best/248226.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-i-guess-the-judge-knows-best/248226.md?page=3)