# Well-intentioned ideas that won't work in real life: green grocer liberalism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 10, 2012, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-intentioned-ideas-that-wont-work-in-real-life-green-grocer-liberalism/624728 "2012-06-10T15:17:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-intentioned-ideas-that-wont-work-in-real-life-green-grocer-liberalism/624728/81 "2012-06-10T22:10:45Z")
Oh yes… If a person only has McDonald’s at their avail, then they have no choice but to eat at McDonald’s, correct? If you present the person with another option and he refuses it, fine. You can be as judgmental as you want. But you can’t be judgmental about choices he is unable to make. I grew up right across from a Mom and Pop store. I guess we were lucky because it had a produce section, but the bins were frequently full of spoiling, misshapen, fly-blown food. But the junk food aisle was always pristine and well-stocked. We had options–this much is true. But it’s insane to insist those options cost the same or that our purchasing decisions in that store were predictive of our behavior in a totally different one. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-intentioned-ideas-that-wont-work-in-real-life-green-grocer-liberalism/624728/82 "2012-06-10T22:13:13Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Oh yes… > > If a person only has McDonald’s at their avail, then they have no choice but to eat at McDonald’s, correct? You have _got_ to be kidding. I just said that a real grocery store is better than a mom and pop store selling brown bananas. But you apparently refuse to listen. I’m tired of this debate tactic. Also, please provide data that says McDonald’s is the only food option for many Americans. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-intentioned-ideas-that-wont-work-in-real-life-green-grocer-liberalism/624728/83 "2012-06-10T22:13:45Z")
> [@Farmer\_Jane](#): > > [Studies Question the Pairing of Food Deserts and Obesity](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/18/health/research/pairing-of-food-deserts-and-obesity-challenged-in-studies.html) > > I just don’t believe **monstro** when she says that so many of these people in urban don’t have access to proper food. I am pleading with you to stop, **Farmer**. I haven’t said this in this thread or any other. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-intentioned-ideas-that-wont-work-in-real-life-green-grocer-liberalism/624728/84 "2012-06-10T22:17:11Z")
> [@fumster](#): > > I prefer the conseratives approach: we know what’s best, let’s do the opposite. :rolleyes: Try again. Quite obviously, you know nothing about conservatives. We don’t say that we know better. What we do say is make your own choices but take responsibility for your actions. That’s why The War On Big Gulps is so asinine. Let people drink all the Big Gulps and eat all the sugar, etc., that they want. But they shouldn’t expect society to take care of them when they pork up to 400 pounds and have heart problems and diabetes. Actions have consequences. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-intentioned-ideas-that-wont-work-in-real-life-green-grocer-liberalism/624728/85 "2012-06-10T22:19:17Z")
So your story about the woman eating junk at a mini mart after a double shift was never posted? 😕 You’ve made it very clear that you refuse to judge anyone’s food choices or the government’s response to them. (Unless, of course, the government wants to restrict paying for cookies.) ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-intentioned-ideas-that-wont-work-in-real-life-green-grocer-liberalism/624728/86 "2012-06-10T22:23:45Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Try again. Quite obviously, you know nothing about conservatives. > > We don’t say that we know better. What we do say is make your own choices but take responsibility for your actions. That’s why The War On Big Gulps is so asinine. Let people drink all the Big Gulps and eat all the sugar, etc., that they want. But they shouldn’t expect society to take care of them when they pork up to 400 pounds and have heart problems and diabetes. Actions have consequences. Except that fat, Big-Gulping republicans _do_ expect to be taken care of. That’s the pathetic irony of all this. Because 99% of those “I’m a grown-up boy and can make my own choices and accept the consequences” people will sure as hell take advantage of whatever cheap/free/subsidized options there are out there, principles be damned. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-intentioned-ideas-that-wont-work-in-real-life-green-grocer-liberalism/624728/87 "2012-06-10T22:26:35Z")
There are places in the United States where access to healthy food is problematic. I work on one such area in Little Rock. If you want to go to a grocery store you need a car. Otherwise you’ve got a few fast food places, liquor stores, one outrageously expensive corner grocer and some gas station convenience stores. If you don’t have an automobile you’re out of luck. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-intentioned-ideas-that-wont-work-in-real-life-green-grocer-liberalism/624728/88 "2012-06-10T22:33:32Z")
> [@Farmer\_Jane](#): > > …you can get a full meal at McDonald’s for $5? > > Also, if you are a female, you don’t need to be eating 1200 calories in one meal. Not necessarily, some poor women do day laborer work (landscaping, cleaning debris or brush, etc.) if they can get it. It pays better, but it’s hard, physical labor that will easily absorb the energy of a 1200 callorie meal. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-intentioned-ideas-that-wont-work-in-real-life-green-grocer-liberalism/624728/89 "2012-06-10T22:44:26Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > One of the things I rarely hear mentioned, and perhaps this is because people are too afraid of being called racist for it, is that you really can’t expect to succeed going in and providing people with access to the wrong varieties of fruits and vegetables for their cultural background. > > When my clients tell me about what they eat, I rarely hear the urban black ones mention broccoli or peapods. If you put broccoli or peapods in their convenience stores, I don’t think they’re going to buy them. Put some collards and green tomatoes in there and I bet they’d move better. Not because, stereotypically, Black People like collards and green tomatoes, but because actual, individual black people like collards and green tomatoes. Some of them, of course, and others don’t, but they seem to be much more popularly mentioned than broccoli or peapods or other things I see in cell-o packets at Walgreens. > > In other words…is anyone doing any actual on the ground research to find out what people in this particular neighborhood actually like to eat, but don’t have daily access to? This is a very good point. My neighborhood has grocery stores within walking and bicycling distance. I rarely shop at them unless it’s picking up one or two items fast because while they have plenty of fresh and cheap vegetables, fruit, etc. their selections is mostly tailored to Mexican Americans. Good, healthy tortillas are fresh made in the store, but not rye bread. I hope they are doing some research into what the local people might actually want to eat. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-intentioned-ideas-that-wont-work-in-real-life-green-grocer-liberalism/624728/90 "2012-06-10T22:45:23Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Try again. Quite obviously, you know nothing about conservatives. > > We don’t say that we know better. What we do say is make your own choices but take responsibility for your actions. That’s why The War On Big Gulps is so asinine. Let people drink all the Big Gulps and eat all the sugar, etc., that they want. But they shouldn’t expect society to take care of them when they pork up to 400 pounds and have heart problems and diabetes. Actions have consequences. It’s worth pointing out that the big gulp ban was proposed by a republican mayor, and that Jon Stewart, who is much of a spokesman for the generally liberal opinion as there is, devoted an entire segment of his show to mocking it mercilessly. I agree that there are some parallels between banning big gulps and actual policies that actual liberals actual support, but they’re only parallels, it is in NO way a liberal policy. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-intentioned-ideas-that-wont-work-in-real-life-green-grocer-liberalism/624728/91 "2012-06-10T22:49:14Z")
I’m a liberal who thinks that policies like big gulp bans or trans fat bans or Super Size bans are insanely stupid, if you’re looking for more data points. Programs like the one mentioned in the OP sound like they might be worth trying, although if they’ve already been tried and found not to be effective, then it’s time to try something else instead. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-intentioned-ideas-that-wont-work-in-real-life-green-grocer-liberalism/624728/92 "2012-06-10T22:50:00Z")
**Farmer** , I didn’t say anything about “urban” anything or urban people not having any choices. If you can’t remember what I have said, please keep my name out of your posts. Do poor people have very many choices? No, they don’t, and I don’t see how you can sit there and say otherwise. On my way to walking to work, I get to a stretch of town where the closet grocery store is two miles away. That isn’t far if you have a car, but if you get around on foot and bus pass, it’s a chore. But there is a 7-11. It’s my go-to spot if I should find myself in need of water if it’s hot. What options do they offer? To their credit, they do have some meager fruit options available. You can get a banana for sixty cents and a cupful of grapes for $2.00. Together, about that’s 150 calories, some fiber, and some vitamins for $2.60 (excluding tax). You know how much a honey bun costs? A dollar. You know how many calories a honey bun provides? Not 150. Not 300. But 450. And it will make you feel full and satisfied. A banana and a handful of grapes? Not so much. If you’ve got a dollar to buy lunch with, the right choice is NOT clear. You don’t have a plethora of options, all costing the same. Some options are definitely more cost-effective than others. Twisting my words will not make it easier for you to debate with me. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-intentioned-ideas-that-wont-work-in-real-life-green-grocer-liberalism/624728/93 "2012-06-10T22:56:12Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > It’s worth pointing out that the big gulp ban was proposed by a republican mayor, and that Jon Stewart, who is much of a spokesman for the generally liberal opinion as there is, devoted an entire segment of his show to mocking it mercilessly. Hey! Stop messing up a perfectly good stereotype theory with FACTS, mister! I’m gonna tell Stephen Colbert on you! (And yeah, this leftist liberal hippie chick thinks the Big Gulp ban is absolutely stupid, too.) ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-intentioned-ideas-that-wont-work-in-real-life-green-grocer-liberalism/624728/94 "2012-06-10T23:04:16Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > I’m a liberal who thinks that policies like big gulp bans or trans fat bans or Super Size bans are insanely stupid, if you’re looking for more data points. I’d call myself a conservative. Yet I would be all for a trans fat ban or limit. This assumes two things. Trans fat is actually bad as some claim. And that substitutes are only marginally more expensive. Kinda like requiring iodine in salt or certain vitamins in bread. In these cases the cost to the consumer are almost invisible but the benefits to them and society can be quite substantial. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-intentioned-ideas-that-wont-work-in-real-life-green-grocer-liberalism/624728/95 "2012-06-10T23:33:46Z")
As for the overall issue, I don’t have much to say about the actual example under discussion, but I think the generic philosophical issue is an interesting one worth talking about. And yes, one part of the general liberal mindset is to see problems in society, and to try to come up with ways that government can help solve those problems. Frequently that involves spending tax money. And, liberals being as susceptible to stupidity, short-sightedness and/or corruption as any other people, these solutions are undoubtedly sometimes terrible ideas, and sometimes purely schemes to line the pockets of rich liberal donors. But I certainly believe that the general “use governmental power and money to make society better” idea is one that has proven itself to be incredibly beneficial over the course of US history. A few other comments concerning various things that have been brought up so far this thread: (1) The point of stimulus money, as I understand it, is to be spent on things, and thus get “out there” and get the wheels of the economy turning again. Therefore, a program like this is a perfectly appropriate use of stimulus money… as are most things other than “extremely corrupt politician just pockets it and walks away”. (2) A bit of rhetoric that pops up frequently in discussions like this is “liberals think they know what’s best for you”. Which is kind of meaningless. Everyone thinks they know what’s best for you. Conservatives think that learning English and not having pre-marital sex is best for you, liberals think that eating organic produce and not consuming nuclear power is best for you. Or whatever. The question is what they do with that opinion. When liberalism is at its best, I think what it does with that opinion is set things up to discourage something without banning it, or encourage something without requiring it. Cigarette taxes and warning labels are a good example of that… and the proposal under discussion in this thread aspires to that goal as well. Now, my natural snarkiness compels me to point out that there are some cases where conservatives think they know what’s best for you (don’t smoke pot, don’t get gay married) where they are clearly the ones supporting laws restricting rights… But overall, I don’t so much think that liberals come out better on the “think they know what’s best for you” competition as I just think it’s a meaningless and fairly ill-defined thing to say in the first place, particularly when it’s presented as this smug encapsulation of the entire concept of liberalism. (3) Speaking purely for myself, I don’t think the government should be in the business of banning big gulps, but I think that taxing big gulps is a perfectly reasonable thing to do (I mean, I’m not saying it SHOULD be done, but I’m saying that it certainly COULD be done without setting off any warning bells for me). I also think it’s far more reasonable for the government to put restrictions on what business can or can not do than on what individuals can or can not do. When evaluating a proposed law that limits what individuals can/can not do, you both have to convince me that your law will make society better, AND that it does not violate individual rights. When evaluating a proposed law that limits what businesses can or can not do, only one of those requirements must be met. (OK, it’s a bit more complicated than that, if anyone wants to really get into the precise details…) ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-intentioned-ideas-that-wont-work-in-real-life-green-grocer-liberalism/624728/96 "2012-06-10T23:55:00Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > We don’t say that we know better. What we do say is make your own choices but take responsibility for your actions. Nah, conservatives don’t tell people how to live their lives. They don’t try to legislate who may marry whom. They don’t try to tell women what they can and can’t do with their own bodies. They would never suggest you can’t use marijuana in your own home. I could go on. The truth is _some_ conservatives spend a large part of their lives telling others what they can and can’t do. To pretend otherwise is simply foolish. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-intentioned-ideas-that-wont-work-in-real-life-green-grocer-liberalism/624728/97 "2012-06-11T00:00:09Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > It’s worth pointing out that the big gulp ban was proposed by a republican mayor, and that Jon Stewart, who is much of a spokesman for the generally liberal opinion as there is, devoted an entire segment of his show to mocking it mercilessly. > > I agree that there are some parallels between banning big gulps and actual policies that actual liberals actual support, but they’re only parallels, it is in NO way a liberal policy. Um… Did I miss a memo? Michael Bloomberg proposed the Big Gulp ban. Not a Republican. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-intentioned-ideas-that-wont-work-in-real-life-green-grocer-liberalism/624728/98 "2012-06-11T00:02:38Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Um… Did I miss a memo? Michael Bloomberg proposed the Big Gulp ban. Not a Republican. I had to check Wiki to confirm Bloomberg’s political affiliation, because I was sure he was a Republican. Just to save everyone else the time: > [@Wikipedia](#): > > A Democrat before seeking elective office, Bloomberg switched his registration in 2001 and ran for mayor as a Republican, winning the election that year and a second term in 2005. Bloomberg left the Republican Party over policy and philosophical disagreements with national party leadership in 2007 and ran for his third term in 2009 as an independent candidate on the Republican ballot line. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-intentioned-ideas-that-wont-work-in-real-life-green-grocer-liberalism/624728/99 "2012-06-11T00:03:02Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Let’s say you are right and this green grocer idea is a waste of money. > > Isn’t there some benefit to actually finding out that it doesn’t work then presuming it wouldn’t without even trying? One benefit that I can see is that it would inform other, more practical solutions (that “middle ground” I mentioned earlier). Another is that you’ve got a sound argument for not doing something like it ever again. There is some value in being able to say to the angry mob, “We tried that already, remember?” Prior studies already exist. How many times should we need to try this? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-intentioned-ideas-that-wont-work-in-real-life-green-grocer-liberalism/624728/100 "2012-06-11T00:06:04Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > **Bricker** : Did you notice that this program was started before the studies you cited were published? > > Also, is there some reason you didn’t [link to the article?](http://www.nola.com/newsflash/index.ssf/story/the-900000-corner-store-experiment-philadelphia/1fd56aae4cc91373ec7a108b0494becc) > > n.b.: I’m no fan of such programs, preferring to let people make their own choices. I’ll also note that the Philadelphia experiment was partially funded with stimulus money. That was supposed to get the economy back on track, not fund social experiments. No, because it’s not so. The Leeds study was done in 2003. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-intentioned-ideas-that-wont-work-in-real-life-green-grocer-liberalism/624728.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-intentioned-ideas-that-wont-work-in-real-life-green-grocer-liberalism/624728.md?page=6)