# Well, it probably won't shut up creationists... \[self-replicating RNA enzyme systems\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 12, 2009, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-it-probably-wont-shut-up-creationists-self-replicating-rna-enzyme-systems/480901 "2009-01-12T12:08:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2009, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-it-probably-wont-shut-up-creationists-self-replicating-rna-enzyme-systems/480901/181 "2009-01-13T23:24:21Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Some knowledge was lost some was maintained and there was new knowledge that came about. I think it was the lack of centralized structures that really caused the dark ages. Think of the Empire as the IEEE standards. “I find your lack of precision… disturbing.” ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2009, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-it-probably-wont-shut-up-creationists-self-replicating-rna-enzyme-systems/480901/182 "2009-01-14T00:05:08Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Right, I understand, but how evolution works according to the theory of evolution does not allow there to be an endpoint. Therefore, it is simply not possible to endorse the theory of evolution and believe that god created man in his image. The bolded part above simply doesn’t make any sense–it’s not possible to use evolution as a means to come up with something because that’s not how evolution works. > > Stated another way, if you fully endorsed the theory of evolution, you would agree that there would still be dinosaurs roaming the earth if conditions were still right for them. In fact, mammals would never have come into existence if specific events hadn’t occurred that caused mammals to be the more fit species I think you’ve misunderstood me - I don’t believe in “guided evolution” any more than I believe in “guided weather” or “guided orbital mechanics” I have no problem acknowledging that humans are a contigent result of evolution (as is everything else!). Every species that exists on Earth today is the result of a chaotic series of events - even a slight change to events a few million years ago would very likely result in modern day world with a very different group of species than those that exist today. By “In His image” I don’t mean “looking like a human being” - I mean “having free will and intelligence.” I think God created the universe so that it would eventually, by some route, produce beings that have those characteristics, without the need for guiding or meddling. P.S. I know you have a separate thread on this issue, but since you responded to me here, I thought I’d reply back here also. > [@](#): > > However, as a Christian, there’s no way you could acknowledge that it is possible for humans never to exist. By the way, it’s somewhat impolite to tell me what I can or can’t acknowledge. I don’t like it when Creationists tell me that I’m not allowed to acknowledge that evolution is true, and I don’t like it when you do either. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2009, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-it-probably-wont-shut-up-creationists-self-replicating-rna-enzyme-systems/480901/183 "2009-01-14T00:15:34Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Check out Cosmic Background Radiation, direct evidence of what happened billions of years ago. By your lights if you find a body with a bullet hole in it you can’t say it was murdered since you didn’t see it happen. Right. I read a great article a while back that highlighted the unity of science - the science that shows that the universe is 14 billion years old and expanding is intimately connected with the science that allows us to design lightbulbs and GPS systems, and microwave ovens. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2009, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-it-probably-wont-shut-up-creationists-self-replicating-rna-enzyme-systems/480901/184 "2009-01-14T00:17:58Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > “I find your lack of precision… disturbing.” To whit, feudalism doesn’t foment a broadly cohesive intellectual culture as well as an Empire. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2009, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-it-probably-wont-shut-up-creationists-self-replicating-rna-enzyme-systems/480901/185 "2009-01-14T00:36:18Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I wonder what he would consider as observing evolution. A dog turning into a cat or something, no doubt. He might as well say he doesn’t believe a seed turns into a plant since he has never personally observed it happen from beginning to end. I always have to laugh when creationists say they won’t believe in evolution until they see a dog giving birth to a cat - they’re saying they won’t believe in evolution until they see evidence that would disprove evolution! Bwuh? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2009, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-it-probably-wont-shut-up-creationists-self-replicating-rna-enzyme-systems/480901/186 "2009-01-14T10:09:53Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > “I find your lack of precision… disturbing.” Well, we did lose the knowledge of Greek Fire, and the secret of Damascus steel for example (similar to Japan losing many techniques of blademaking because of the tradition of secrecy of their swordsmiths). Also, we can’t turn lead into gold anymore ☹ 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2009, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-it-probably-wont-shut-up-creationists-self-replicating-rna-enzyme-systems/480901/187 "2009-01-14T11:22:06Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I had some more thoughts about the fallen world theory (FWT) I posted above and the theory of evolution (ToE). Please either stop using the word “theory”, or (preferably) learn what it means. Self-replicating, “mutating” RNA systems . . . . sure, at first they seem cute. But someday the Neoterics, after innumerable generations of inconceivable advancement, will take down their shield and come forth. When I think of that I feel frightened. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2009, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-it-probably-wont-shut-up-creationists-self-replicating-rna-enzyme-systems/480901/188 "2009-01-14T13:46:24Z")
> [@Strassia](#): > > Thank you for clarifying. I think I understand your position, although I personally find it depressing. > > Jonathan Why do you find it depressing? Is it that you find my personal view about it depressing, or that if it is true you find the condition of humanity depressing, or something else? Here is a verse of what the scriptures say about it (Jesus speaking): [QUOTE= John 15:5] "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. [/QUOTE] And when we stray from the will of God: [QUOTE=Isaiah 64:6] All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2009, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-it-probably-wont-shut-up-creationists-self-replicating-rna-enzyme-systems/480901/189 "2009-01-14T14:15:54Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > I promise my line of questioning will get somewhere eventually, but it requires a lot of single questions. > > Let’s start with: what’s your basis for accepting the scriptures as the absolute factual world view/law? In other words, WHY is something wrong if it contradicts the scriptures? Scriptures are a physical representation of the Word of God, which is God (John 1:1). I do admit that the physical translation can have errors, but the Word, which speaks to the heart can not. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2009, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-it-probably-wont-shut-up-creationists-self-replicating-rna-enzyme-systems/480901/190 "2009-01-14T14:22:00Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Scriptures are a physical representation of the Word of God, which is God (John 1:1). Do you understand that what you just said is an _extrabiblical_ doctrine? You’ll not find it stated or implied anywhere within the scriptures themselves. -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2009, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-it-probably-wont-shut-up-creationists-self-replicating-rna-enzyme-systems/480901/191 "2009-01-14T14:43:24Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > OK, this boggled my mind a bit. I know and fully appreciate you disagree with a whole bunch of scientific _conclusions_, but you _don’t believe the scientific method to be valid?_. How? It’s just a mechanical process for making descriptions more closely fit the things they’re describing, moreover, \*it has been demonstrated to work, over and over again. > I would not have been any more taken aback if you’d said, for example, that you don’t really believe that bicycles are capable of being moved. Again the following is just something I can put forth that does not contradict scriptures, though I don’t claim divine inspiration or it to be fact and points out the possibility that our world may be manipulated far more then we can perceive. Scriptures have stated vast amounts of gold, including golden calves the size of normal calves and gold shields. Gold would be a very poor choice for a shield because of it’s weight, and the vast quantities of gold in scriptures boggle the mind. Recently a biblical age golden calf was found, it was about 6 in high. Historians and the like try to explain it by stating that the calf was put on a stand at the height of a real calf, but this contradicts scriptures. Is it possible that gold was once a light metal, along the lines titanium, and much more volume per mass. This would make it a excellent choice for shields and explain how such vast quantities were available then. As the ‘constants’ of the world were manipulated gold became denser and therefore smaller in volume. Bringing this to modern day, many people claim with advances in internal combustion engines we should be getting 100mpg, but mpg is basically unchanged. Many claim that big oil/auto industry is holding it back. But that theory falls short since man does not have that power to keep that technology a secret. But it is not out of the question for the ‘prince of this age’, the fallen angelic being Satan, who has much greater power then man, and it is his world we ‘fell’ into. (Yes God is over Satan, but allows Satan much power). Scriptures point to our spiritual battle not against flesh (man), but about powers, rulers, thrones, authorities ( the satanic rulers of this world (Eph 6)). We can see the power of angels over matter when the chains fell off Peter while he was in prison. We can also see the spiritual power of God in the many acts, we are warned that the devil has a counterfeit power for every power of God. God also states He hates dishonest scales, which might be extended to how things like energy content in fuel is available. This would involve Satan controlling a ‘Matrix’ like world, being able to change things like printed manuals, but there is no contradiction to scriptures on this. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2009, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-it-probably-wont-shut-up-creationists-self-replicating-rna-enzyme-systems/480901/192 "2009-01-14T14:48:45Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Do you understand that what you just said is an _extrabiblical_ doctrine? You’ll not find it stated or implied anywhere within the scriptures themselves. > > -FrL- Scriptures are usually used to refer to the OT along with the printed script, where God was not personally known (except to very few). God is distant from His people at this time. The Word comes when Jesus is born, including born in us. Jesus comes into our heart and He speaks to us by speaking to our heart. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2009, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-it-probably-wont-shut-up-creationists-self-replicating-rna-enzyme-systems/480901/193 "2009-01-14T15:00:37Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Scriptures are usually used to refer to the OT along with the printed script, where God was not personally known (except to very few). God is distant from His people at this time. The Word comes when Jesus is born, including born in us. Jesus comes into our heart and He speaks to us by speaking to our heart. None of that seems to address the fact that you’re espousing an extrabiblical doctrine. There is no basis in scripture for identification of the scriptures with the Word referred to in John 1. -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2009, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-it-probably-wont-shut-up-creationists-self-replicating-rna-enzyme-systems/480901/194 "2009-01-14T15:08:35Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > None of that seems to address the fact that you’re espousing an extrabiblical doctrine. There is no basis in scripture for identification of the scriptures with the Word referred to in John 1. > > -FrL- Ok, I got you, it was not the relationship I was making there, but to answer you: [QUOTE=Mark 7] 10For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’[d] and, ‘Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.’[e] 11But you say that if a man says to his father or mother: ‘Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is Corban’ (that is, a gift devoted to God), 12then you no longer let him do anything for his father or mother. 13Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that." [/QUOTE] Here Jesus relates scriptures, part of the OT, to the word of God. ---
**Author:** ![Strassia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e8c25b/32.png) [@Strassia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strassia)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2009, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-it-probably-wont-shut-up-creationists-self-replicating-rna-enzyme-systems/480901/195 "2009-01-14T15:27:50Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Why do you find it depressing? Is it that you find my personal view about it depressing, or that if it is true you find the condition of humanity depressing, or something else? Here is a verse of what the scriptures say about it (Jesus speaking): > > And when we stray from the will of God: I find it depressing because if it were true than humanity is merely a puppet of God and God created us with abilities and capacity he specifically wants us to suppress. If God is the Father and we his children, think about it reference to your own children. Would you be happier if they called you and asked you to make every decision for them, or would you want them to learn to make good decisions on their own? Your philosophy makes all human achievement false and harmful. If there is a God, I hope he is the type of father that want us to learn, grow, and create, and not one that wants us to be stunted and dependent. > [@kanicbird](#): > > Bringing this to modern day, many people claim with advances in internal combustion engines we should be getting 100mpg, but mpg is basically unchanged. Many claim that big oil/auto industry is holding it back. But that theory falls short since man does not have that power to keep that technology a secret. I am not going to address your gold issue directly, but I will point out that here is your problem. You make statements trying to reconcile scripture and your beliefs with the world as we observe it, but you don’t understand the world. Take this statement about fuel efficiency. The reason we do not have 100mpg cars is not some satanic plot. For starters, we actually do have them, right now. You can get 100mpg in a Prius if you were willing to accept the inconvenience. It just means keeping your speed below 50mph, accelerating very slowly and always coasting to a stop instead of using your brakes. More than one set of people have already done this. Going beyond that, the current world record for fuel efficiency for an internal combustion engine is over 5000mpg. The reason the average car gets such poor mileage is simple economics: gas is cheap. When gas gets really expensive people will change their driving habits and car companies will make more efficient cars. Most people are not willing to lose 5 minutes of the commute for 5 cents of gas savings, but might for 5 dollars. That was more detail than this really needs, but the point is that what you are doing is starting from an unsupported position and then trying to fit all data into that theory without understanding the data in the first place. Jonathan ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2009, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-it-probably-wont-shut-up-creationists-self-replicating-rna-enzyme-systems/480901/196 "2009-01-14T16:02:11Z")
> [@Strassia](#): > > I find it depressing because if it were true than humanity is merely a puppet of God and God created us with abilities and capacity he specifically wants us to suppress. If God is the Father and we his children, think about it reference to your own children. Would you be happier if they called you and asked you to make every decision for them, or would you want them to learn to make good decisions on their own? Your philosophy makes all human achievement false and harmful. If there is a God, I hope he is the type of father that want us to learn, grow, and create, and not one that wants us to be stunted and dependent. I see it as more of the prodigal son. We were offered everything, including the ability to try to go off on our own, our Father lets us and we venture out into the world. Eventually we come to the conclusion that our best possible life if the one our Father intended for us all along and we head home. He being God knows this and also knows that we will eventually head home, and He waits for us. > [@](#): > > That was more detail than this really needs, but the point is that what you are doing is starting from an unsupported position and then trying to fit all data into that theory without understanding the data in the first place. > > Jonathan What I am doing is taking the Word of God as the only truth available to us and use it as a rock, a anchor, as the only way to discern truth in this world. Again I don’t claim that the mpg issue is true, just it is not contradicted by scriptures AFAIK so it is not automatically false. ---
**Author:** ![Strassia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e8c25b/32.png) [@Strassia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strassia)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2009, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-it-probably-wont-shut-up-creationists-self-replicating-rna-enzyme-systems/480901/197 "2009-01-14T16:16:18Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I see it as more of the prodigal son. We were offered everything, including the ability to try to go off on our own, our Father lets us and we venture out into the world. Eventually we come to the conclusion that our best possible life if the one our Father intended for us all along and we head home. He being God knows this and also knows that we will eventually head home, and He waits for us. I understand your position, but disagree with it. I think we should leave it at that in this thread. > [@](#): > > What I am doing is taking the Word of God as the only truth available to us and use it as a rock, a anchor, as the only way to discern truth in this world. Again I don’t claim that the mpg issue is true, just it is not contradicted by scriptures AFAIK so it is not automatically false. My point is that when you make analogies to support your position, if you pick ones that are not true it has the opposite affect. If you truly believe the density of gold has changed over time, arguing that it is similar to the way we can’t have a car that goes 100mpg when we can and it is well known is counter productive. It would be a bad idea for me to try to argue scripture if I have only watched some cartoons and skimmed some of the more famous passages and it is a bad idea to try and argue about science and technology when you know so little about it. Jonathan ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2009, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-it-probably-wont-shut-up-creationists-self-replicating-rna-enzyme-systems/480901/198 "2009-01-14T23:16:29Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Again the following is just something I can put forth that does not contradict scriptures, though I don’t claim divine inspiration or it to be fact and points out the possibility that our world may be manipulated far more then we can perceive. > > Scriptures have stated vast amounts of gold, including golden calves the size of normal calves and gold shields. Gold would be a very poor choice for a shield because of it’s weight, and the vast quantities of gold in scriptures boggle the mind. Recently a biblical age golden calf was found, it was about 6 in high. Historians and the like try to explain it by stating that the calf was put on a stand at the height of a real calf, but this contradicts scriptures. Is it possible that gold was once a light metal, along the lines titanium, and much more volume per mass. This would make it a excellent choice for shields and explain how such vast quantities were available then. As the ‘constants’ of the world were manipulated gold became denser and therefore smaller in volume. Sounds like 24-carat nonsense to me. The solid gold items (well, actually, _one of them_ - a calf) shrank to a smaller size but the gold overlaid onto wooden items didn’t shrink and split off their substrate? The golden cups we have in so many museums were once too big to drink from. The golden items of jewellery are only now the right size to fit necks and wrists _by complete coincidence_? Or… One little calf was a little calf and has always been a little calf since the day it was made. Far more likely explanations: a) Someone wrote it down wrong. b) These Are Not The Golden Calves You Were Looking For You’re not making any sense. What’s more, you’re doing it on purpose. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2009, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-it-probably-wont-shut-up-creationists-self-replicating-rna-enzyme-systems/480901/199 "2009-01-14T23:55:50Z")
> [@Baldwin](#): > > Please either stop using the word “theory”, or (preferably) learn what it means. > > Self-replicating, “mutating” RNA systems . . . . sure, at first they seem cute. But someday the Neoterics, after innumerable generations of inconceivable advancement, will take down their shield and come forth. When I think of that I feel frightened. (shifting from Sturgeon to Groening)… The evil one (the one known as “Bart”) will stop them. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-it-probably-wont-shut-up-creationists-self-replicating-rna-enzyme-systems/480901/200 "2009-01-15T00:00:17Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > You’re not making any sense. What’s more, you’re doing it on purpose. Hey now, never assume malice what can alternately be ascribed to…cognitave dissonance. There is nothing so stupid that it cannot be honestly believed. By somebody. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-it-probably-wont-shut-up-creationists-self-replicating-rna-enzyme-systems/480901.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-it-probably-wont-shut-up-creationists-self-replicating-rna-enzyme-systems/480901.md?page=11)