# Well, it probably won't shut up creationists... \[self-replicating RNA enzyme systems\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 12, 2009, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-it-probably-wont-shut-up-creationists-self-replicating-rna-enzyme-systems/480901 "2009-01-12T12:08:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Strassia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e8c25b/32.png) [@Strassia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strassia)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2009, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-it-probably-wont-shut-up-creationists-self-replicating-rna-enzyme-systems/480901/161 "2009-01-13T17:39:08Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > A will not submitted to God is not going to do righteous things. In making a decision one should ask if there is any desire of the flesh clouding judgment, and if so I would suggest turning to God to help make the decision He wants you to make. People who do not have Jesus living inside them don’t have this ability and they will continue to do evil even though they may try to do good. Thank you for clarifying. I think I understand your position, although I personally find it depressing. Jonathan ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2009, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-it-probably-wont-shut-up-creationists-self-replicating-rna-enzyme-systems/480901/162 "2009-01-13T17:48:32Z")
> [@Priceguy](#): > > Right now, humans are further along than we’ve ever been before. > > Right now, humans know more than we’ve ever known before. > > Right now, humans are able to do more than we’ve ever been able to do before. > > Pretty cool, isn’t it? Of course, this was also true the first time someone figured out how to make fire, or the wheel. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2009, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-it-probably-wont-shut-up-creationists-self-replicating-rna-enzyme-systems/480901/163 "2009-01-13T18:27:02Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I am truly glad you cleared that up for us, and I agree. But you see the Big Bang and evolution are not observed data. What you create in the lab today can’t be compared with what happened billions of years ago because there were no observers billions of years ago. No one knows if or how evolution developed as well as the Big Bang. Science finds fossils and then opines how there got there and what they mean. Science measures planets, their speed, etc. and opines what started them, but no one was there when they started and no one knows. That is when a theory is born. You can call your opinions evidence if you like, I don’t care, but it really isn’t evidence. I believe the world would be better off without theories on anything. If the truth were apparent or could be determined then great. If not it simply remains “unknown.” I know this is not a “scientific” definition, it is a rational and logical one. Heck, I am so old I can remember when real scientists thought as I do. Used to love science before it became a kind of religion. Never loved religion. That is my take on the subject. Check out Cosmic Background Radiation, direct evidence of what happened billions of years ago. By your lights if you find a body with a bullet hole in it you can’t say it was murdered since you didn’t see it happen. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2009, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-it-probably-wont-shut-up-creationists-self-replicating-rna-enzyme-systems/480901/164 "2009-01-13T18:31:45Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > ETA: You initial claim was that evolution is not observable by any person. If you are now going to slither out of that claim by saying that **I** have not personally witnessed it, I will have to conclude that you are simply “debating” in bad faith. I wonder what he would consider as observing evolution. A dog turning into a cat or something, no doubt. He might as well say he doesn’t believe a seed turns into a plant since he has never personally observed it happen from beginning to end. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2009, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-it-probably-wont-shut-up-creationists-self-replicating-rna-enzyme-systems/480901/165 "2009-01-13T21:09:40Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Check out Cosmic Background Radiation, direct evidence of what happened billions of years ago. By your lights if you find a body with a bullet hole in it you can’t say it was murdered since you didn’t see it happen. By his logic, he shouldn’t believe it if he sees a murder because it took the light a few nanoseconds to reach his eye. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2009, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-it-probably-wont-shut-up-creationists-self-replicating-rna-enzyme-systems/480901/166 "2009-01-13T21:11:34Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > Of course, this was also true the first time someone figured out how to make fire, or the wheel. Was there ever a time when this _wasn’t_ true? Even during the dark ages, was there a net loss of human knowledge? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2009, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-it-probably-wont-shut-up-creationists-self-replicating-rna-enzyme-systems/480901/167 "2009-01-13T21:12:36Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > …but it goes a long way towards a really elementary and convincing argument regarding the origins of life: For the first time, indefinitely self-replicating RNA enzyme systems have been [created in the lab](http://www.scienceblog.com/cms/comment/reply/18191). > > And what’s even more, they evolve: > Who’s for shipping the mix to some distant planet for some hot, steamy, panspermic action? 😃 Wow we’ve **created** _evolution_. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2009, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-it-probably-wont-shut-up-creationists-self-replicating-rna-enzyme-systems/480901/168 "2009-01-13T21:13:43Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Was there ever a time when this _wasn’t_ true? Even during the dark ages, was there a net loss of human knowledge? Some knowledge was lost some was maintained and there was new knowledge that came about. I think it was the lack of centralized structures that really caused the dark ages. Think of the Empire as the IEEE standards. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2009, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-it-probably-wont-shut-up-creationists-self-replicating-rna-enzyme-systems/480901/169 "2009-01-13T21:45:11Z")
> [@cwthree](#): > > Cite for your assertions that irrigation and snow-making equipment leads to drought, please? [QUOTE=Deut 28] 15 However, if you do not obey the LORD your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come upon you and overtake you: … 24 The LORD will turn the rain of your country into dust and powder; it will come down from the skies until you are destroyed. [/QUOTE] > [@](#): > > Do you believe that there are fewer hours of daylight in a 24-hour period since the invention of artificial illumination? If so, did this trend begin the first time someone used flint to set fire to a piece of wood, or did it wait for the widespread adoption of the electric light bulb? Is time as static as we assume, or does time move by sometimes faster, sometimes slower? Does the invention of lighting just mean we are just working some of our hours using man’s lighting instead of just working during the day? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2009, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-it-probably-wont-shut-up-creationists-self-replicating-rna-enzyme-systems/480901/170 "2009-01-13T21:49:42Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I would say according to the theory that though they didn’t move, we have, our falling has distanced us from everything around us including our ability to perceive them appears further away. It could be applies to time as well. As stars appeared to move, to complete the image they would have to appear to be much older. Thank you for the clarification. I note that you are referring to this idea as your theory. Please could you tell us how it can be objectively verified? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2009, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-it-probably-wont-shut-up-creationists-self-replicating-rna-enzyme-systems/480901/171 "2009-01-13T21:51:26Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I know darned well that you have not taken the time to actually read the linked site, so there is no basis for you to claim that the events noted there were not witnessed “on a personal level.” They were observed in real time by real people within the last couple of years, not deduced from evidence. I did skim it, but yes after I posted, I really don’t find it compelling or contradictory to what I stated. I do admit that man can cause genetic changes. > [@](#): > > While you are claiming that I am “taking man’s word for it,” I will note that you have repeatedly demonstrated that you have an interpretation of the bible that is wholly your own–not God’s–permitting me to simply dismiss your claim as nothing more than a (very solipsistic, not divine), belief. So who is the independent thinker and who is the one following the crowd? Now, if you are going to pursue this line of argument, open a new thread to discuss it. This thread has enough hijacks without taking this one. > [@](#): > > ETA: You initial claim was that evolution is not observable by any person. If you are now going to slither out of that claim by saying that **I** have not personally witnessed it, I will have to conclude that you are simply “debating” in bad faith. My claim is based on my belief that 1 it has to agree with scriptures, or at least not contradict them and 2 that the scientific method is inherently wrong as it contradicts the scriptures. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2009, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-it-probably-wont-shut-up-creationists-self-replicating-rna-enzyme-systems/480901/172 "2009-01-13T21:54:23Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Thank you for the clarification. I note that you are referring to this idea as your theory. Please could you tell us how it can be objectively verified? First I don’t claim it to be divinely inspired, nor to I claim it to be fact. But it is a theory that does not contradict scriptures and is observable at a personal level. I don’t believe the scientific method to be valid because it is contrary to scriptures. So you can only be able to verify it subjectively (or personally), not objectively. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2009, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-it-probably-wont-shut-up-creationists-self-replicating-rna-enzyme-systems/480901/173 "2009-01-13T21:55:24Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Is time as static as we assume, or does time move by sometimes faster, sometimes slower? Does the invention of lighting just mean we are just working some of our hours using man’s lighting instead of just working during the day? Just so we’re clear, posting a snippit from a bronze-age mythological text isn’t a cite unless you’re talking about the beliefs of those primitive people. I believe he was asking for a cite based on the real world evidence not the fantasy world of your choosing. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2009, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-it-probably-wont-shut-up-creationists-self-replicating-rna-enzyme-systems/480901/174 "2009-01-13T21:59:16Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > First I don’t claim it to be divinely inspired, nor to I claim it to be fact. But it is a theory that does not contradict scriptures and is observable at a personal level. I don’t believe the scientific method to be valid because it is contrary to scriptures. So you can only be able to verify it subjectively (or personally), not objectively. Your theory is perfect- at least, in that it solves itself (normally this is called begging the question), and gives the answer you want it to. Of course, people who don’t start with your presuppositions are likely to find it wanting… ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2009, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-it-probably-wont-shut-up-creationists-self-replicating-rna-enzyme-systems/480901/175 "2009-01-13T22:12:02Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > Just let it be, and it will go away. Or we could start charging to post. Worked the last time. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2009, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-it-probably-wont-shut-up-creationists-self-replicating-rna-enzyme-systems/480901/176 "2009-01-13T22:31:41Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I did skim it, but yes after I posted, I really don’t find it compelling or contradictory to what I stated. I do admit that man can cause genetic changes. So, you did not actually pay attention to what it described, (the act of evolution being witnessed in nature), and you are now “responding” to a different statement that no one has made: that humans can cause genetic changes. > [@kanicbird](#): > > So who is the independent thinker and who is the one following the crowd? Irrelevant and silly. Only Conspiracy Theory nutjobs and Crank Inventors think that “independent thinking” has some lofty quality when it is in complete contradiction to facts. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2009, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-it-probably-wont-shut-up-creationists-self-replicating-rna-enzyme-systems/480901/177 "2009-01-13T22:38:15Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > My claim is based on my belief that 1 it has to agree with scriptures, or at least not contradict them and 2 that the scientific method is inherently wrong as it contradicts the scriptures. Actually, your claim is based on your belief that 1 it has to agree with your odd and insupportable view of your interpretation of scripture, or at least not contradict them and 2 that the scientific method is inherently wrong as it contradicts your idiosyncratic and solipsistic re-interpretation of the scriptures. In other words, you make up your mind as to what to believe, then go out and find quotations from your particular English translation of the bible that will support what you want to believe, as though no one else in the world has actually understood the scriptures before you came along to “explain” them. Okey-dokey. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2009, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-it-probably-wont-shut-up-creationists-self-replicating-rna-enzyme-systems/480901/178 "2009-01-13T22:40:27Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > First I don’t claim it to be divinely inspired, nor to I claim it to be fact. But it is a theory that does not contradict scriptures and is observable at a personal level. Thank you for elaborating. I’m not sure it _is_ possible to observe the things you say _at any level_ - how can you tell the difference between a)_The stars merely appear far away_ and b)_The stars really are far away_ > [@](#): > > I don’t believe the scientific method to be valid because it is contrary to scriptures. OK, this boggled my mind a bit. I know and fully appreciate you disagree with a whole bunch of scientific _conclusions_, but you _don’t believe the scientific method to be valid?_. How? It’s just a mechanical process for making descriptions more closely fit the things they’re describing, moreover, \*it has been demonstrated to work, over and over again. I would not have been any more taken aback if you’d said, for example, that you don’t really believe that bicycles are capable of being moved. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2009, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-it-probably-wont-shut-up-creationists-self-replicating-rna-enzyme-systems/480901/179 "2009-01-13T22:46:09Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > My claim is based on my belief that 1 it has to agree with scriptures, or at least not contradict them and 2 that the scientific method is inherently wrong as it contradicts the scriptures. I promise my line of questioning will get somewhere eventually, but it requires a lot of single questions. Let’s start with: what’s your basis for accepting the scriptures as the absolute factual world view/law? In other words, WHY is something wrong if it contradicts the scriptures? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2009, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-it-probably-wont-shut-up-creationists-self-replicating-rna-enzyme-systems/480901/180 "2009-01-13T22:55:05Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > I promise my line of questioning will get somewhere eventually, but it requires a lot of single questions. > > Let’s start with: what’s your basis for accepting the scriptures as the absolute factual world view/law? In other words, WHY is something wrong if it contradicts the scriptures? Open a new thread. We really do not need two more (or more) pages in this thread hammering out something that only one person in the entire world believes. [/Modding] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-it-probably-wont-shut-up-creationists-self-replicating-rna-enzyme-systems/480901.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-it-probably-wont-shut-up-creationists-self-replicating-rna-enzyme-systems/480901.md?page=10)