# Well, it's happening now, you stupid mother fuckers (vaccines) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 22, 2008, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-its-happening-now-you-stupid-mother-fuckers-vaccines/460936 "2008-08-22T17:00:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![GargoyleWB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gargoylewb/32/199_2.png) [@GargoyleWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GargoyleWB)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2008, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-its-happening-now-you-stupid-mother-fuckers-vaccines/460936/21 "2008-08-22T19:35:38Z")
This is a major beef I have with Oprah, as she has had these “controversies” as a subject on her show. For all of the good she does with philanthropy, she is one of the most irresponsible shovelers of fearful junk science around. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2008, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-its-happening-now-you-stupid-mother-fuckers-vaccines/460936/22 "2008-08-22T19:36:20Z")
[QUOTE=Roderick Femm] But the kids probably don’t deserve it. Just sayin’, nutjob parents are a bad enough burden, without adding in the threat of death. Anyway, for the sake of argument, there is the perception that the incidence of autism is increasing, which is fueling parental fears about some unknown but possibly preventable cause. What follow are serious questions to which I have no answer: Is that perception (of increased incidence of autism) correct, or are there other factors, such as that diagnosis of it has increased? If diagnosis has increased, why is that? How would these kids, that are now diagnosed as autistic, have been treated/regarded before? Why is it not possible (if \*\*tirial \*\* is correct) to get individual immunizations, or to separate out measles from the other vaccines/immunizations? Roddy [/QUOTE] It appears that autism is being used as a diagnosis instead of other labels. > [@](#): > > [http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/117/4/1028](http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/117/4/1028) > > The average administrative prevalence of autism among children increased from 0.6 to 3.1 per 1000 from 1994 to 2003. By 2003, only 17 states had a special education prevalence of autism that was within the range of recent epidemiological estimates. During the same period, the prevalence of mental retardation and learning disabilities declined by 2.8 and 8.3 per 1000, respectively. Higher autism prevalence was significantly associated with corresponding declines in the prevalence of mental retardation and learning disabilities. Also they took out thimerosol and autism rates went UP: > [@](#): > > [http://www.aafp.org/online/en/home/publications/news/news-now/clinical-care-research/20080116autismstudy.html](http://www.aafp.org/online/en/home/publications/news/news-now/clinical-care-research/20080116autismstudy.html) > > The researchers found that the prevalence of autism reported to the DDS actually has increased consistently among children born from 1989 through 2003, which includes the period when exposure to TCVs decreased. > > “Moreover, since 2004, the absolute increase and the rate of increase in DDS clients aged 3 to 5 years with autism were higher than those in DDS clients of the same ages with any eligible condition, including autism,” the authors write. “These time trends are inconsistent with the hypothesis that thimerosal exposure is a primary cause of autism in California.” ---
**Author:** ![ZipperJJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zipperjj/32/211_2.png) [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2008, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-its-happening-now-you-stupid-mother-fuckers-vaccines/460936/23 "2008-08-22T19:37:46Z")
Do people lie about not vaccinating their kids due to religious beliefs, maybe? “Your kid can’t attend our public school unless she is vaccinated.” “Well, vaccination is against my religion!” \<–LIE “Er uhm…ok, I guess then we can’t force you to vaccinate your kid. Welcome to our school!” ---
**Author:** ![MerryMagdalen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c2a13f/32.png) [@MerryMagdalen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MerryMagdalen)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2008, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-its-happening-now-you-stupid-mother-fuckers-vaccines/460936/24 "2008-08-22T19:41:40Z")
Yup, they do lie and say it’s for religious reasons. Some states also allow you to not vaccinate for non-religious reasons - a conscience clause. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2008, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-its-happening-now-you-stupid-mother-fuckers-vaccines/460936/25 "2008-08-22T19:56:50Z")
[QUOTE=elbows] I believe when it comes to your health and the health of your children you should make the choice you are comfortable with and not condemn those who choose otherwise. [/QUOTE] I heartily disagree. Most vaccines have a very long and old track record. They have been repeatedly proven safe and efficacious. Parents who believe otherwise are simply ignorant. People who make the choice not to vaccinate for non-medical reasons are making the choice to put the rest of us at risk. If you make decisions that could potentially put my child or my community in danger you can hardly whine when people get upset. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2008, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-its-happening-now-you-stupid-mother-fuckers-vaccines/460936/26 "2008-08-22T20:09:47Z")
[QUOTE=elbows] I believe when it comes to your health and the health of your children you should make the choice you are comfortable with and not condemn those who choose otherwise. [/QUOTE] Kids who aren’t vaccinated against polio, for example, shouldn’t be allowed into public (or whatever the term is where you are) schools. What would you do if there was a meningitis scare? Would you accept that the evil, evil authorities would have to force DRUGS on your kids, and indeed yourself? If not, take your shitspawn away to your compound of stupid, and keep them away from anyone with a decent grasp of, well, anything. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2008, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-its-happening-now-you-stupid-mother-fuckers-vaccines/460936/27 "2008-08-22T20:13:12Z")
[QUOTE=elbows] But, y’know, science has been wrong before. [/QUOTE] While I take your post very seriously, I think matching science’s track record against that of “parental intuition,” and the winner is abundantly clear. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2008, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-its-happening-now-you-stupid-mother-fuckers-vaccines/460936/28 "2008-08-22T20:13:59Z")
Christian Scientists are the only Christian group I am aware of that opposes vaccination as a matter of principle. No doubt there are various less organized groups that also do. FWIW, I was banned from a message board for being pro-vaccination. Said message board advertised itself as being pro-organic, so they attracted more lefties than I would have expected. Didn’t the John Birch Society oppose fluoridation? I expected the same thing. Don’t know what religion most of them were, unless “crackpot” is a religion. If it is, by golly these people sure took their faith seriously. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![lisacurl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/41988e/32.png) [@lisacurl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisacurl)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2008, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-its-happening-now-you-stupid-mother-fuckers-vaccines/460936/29 "2008-08-22T20:16:12Z")
[QUOTE=elbows] On the other hand you’ve seen countless mothers describe how their toddler was developing perfectly and then, once given a vaccine, they could almost watch as they disappeared into their own worlds, the world of autism. Those mothers and their absolute unwavering certainty that this was the result of the vaccine, have impact for me. [/QUOTE] _cum hoc ergo propter hoc_ - Correlation does not imply causation. I do think that in some cases parents have seen autism symptoms develop very soon after immunizations. Toddlers are getting immunized at nearly every doctor visit and autism begins to present itself at 12-18 months of age. It would have happened regardless of the immunizations. It is human nature to look for an external cause for this traumatic event that turns a family upside down, because the parents are going to blame themselves. Well, looky here… an external cause that I can blame and rally against and it’s not my fault in any way, not even for having bad genetics or getting acrylic nails put on in my third month or any of the crazy ideas that a parent would naturally have in that situation. The blaming of vaccination, which has saved countless lives through generations, is not too far of a leap to preserve one’s peace of mind and to avoid having to accept the randomness of the damned universe. I’m not saying this is a conscious choice, it’s a psychological defense against the pain of what’s happening to them. I may be projecting my own personal feelings onto that a bit. My sister has autism, and I’m old enough to remember a cheerful roly-poly sweet baby turning into a fretful annoying little crazy bitch of a toddler within the space of a few months. It’s enough to make you believe in the legends of changelings. Something stole her away from us, and it would be lovely to be able to BLAME something tangible. Edit - For what it’s worth - I am legitimately allergic to thimerosal. I had to stop using contact lens solutions for a while until the “sensitive eyes” solutions came onto the market, and then again for a while until the newer weekly cleaners came out without that preservative. I didn’t realize how bad it was until a flu shot resulted in six weeks of muscle aches and exhaustion. I’ve avoided flu shots since at the recommendation of my doctor. There are now flu shots without thimerosal, but you have to request them specifically, and since I am not in a high risk group, I’ve never made the effort. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2008, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-its-happening-now-you-stupid-mother-fuckers-vaccines/460936/30 "2008-08-22T20:19:07Z")
“Most vaccines have a very long and old track record.” Including the cholera vaccine, very long, very old track record. And yet, still proven to be more dangerous than exposure. By the WHO. Mothers intuition, even longer and even older track record. I’m just saying, I’d have to do what was in my heart, regardless. And those who are choosing other than I would, I assume, are doing that too. So no condemnation from me. ---
**Author:** ![lisacurl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/41988e/32.png) [@lisacurl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisacurl)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2008, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-its-happening-now-you-stupid-mother-fuckers-vaccines/460936/31 "2008-08-22T20:25:14Z")
[QUOTE=elbows] “Most vaccines have a very long and old track record.” Including the cholera vaccine, very long, very old track record. And yet, still proven to be more dangerous than exposure. By the WHO. Mothers intuition, even longer and even older track record. I’m just saying, I’d have to do what was in my heart, regardless. And those who are choosing other than I would, I assume, are doing that too. So no condemnation from me. [/QUOTE] Children are not routinely given cholera vaccine, nor malarial drugs. You can’t compare traveler’s vaccines with routine childhood vaccinations that have been given for generations. There are many adults who are not considered healthy enough to tolerate the vaccines they need for travel to certain countries. People are following their damn hearts instead of their heads. And kids are dying from it. The only problem is that it’s not just \*their \*kids dying because of their willful ignorance, it’s other people’s. Mother’s intuition is fine. It’s not an anti-viral, however. ---
**Author:** ![Risha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/5fc32e/32.png) [@Risha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Risha)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2008, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-its-happening-now-you-stupid-mother-fuckers-vaccines/460936/32 "2008-08-22T20:35:11Z")
[QUOTE=elbows] “Most vaccines have a very long and old track record.” Including the cholera vaccine, very long, very old track record. And yet, still proven to be more dangerous than exposure. By the WHO. Mothers intuition, even longer and even older track record. [/QUOTE] Sorry, **elbows** , but you’re just flat-out wrong here. Vaccinations are one of the most important medical innovations in history, saving at least hundreds of millions of lives, and nearly as many crippled children. Now people are skipping them, _putting their children deliberately at risk_, because of some bizarre belief that their child is more at risk of a mental disease that every study says isn’t related, then the ACTUAL risk of them dying from an otherwise incurable disease. It’s no more logical than a Christian Scientist who refuse to take their child to the doctor when they’re dying. (Their religion doesn’t actually require that, by the way, it’s just the crazies that take it too far.) Let’s put it this way. The flat earth people have just as much of my respect, and for the same reason, as they have just as much of a good reason for their beliefs. There’s being skeptical, and there’s refusing to believe the massive overload of proof for no good reason other than “intuition”. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2008, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-its-happening-now-you-stupid-mother-fuckers-vaccines/460936/33 "2008-08-22T21:31:01Z")
[QUOTE=elbows] I believe when it comes to your health and the health of your children you should make the choice you are comfortable with and not condemn those who choose otherwise. [/QUOTE] Honey, if my (fictional) baby, too young to be vaccinated, _dies of the measles_ because you decided to rely on herd immunity and ride like a parasite on the risks of the rest of us? You better damned well believe I’ll condemn. Measles _kills people_ all over the world every day. The only reason we here in the developed world would even THINK about not vaccinating our kids is because we’ve been lulled into complacency. We don’t remember smallpox. We don’t remember diptheria. We don’t remember polio. We never knew anybody in an iron lung. My mom was one of the first kids there in Pittsburgh to get the polio vaccine. Do you think she’d ever even consider not vaccinating a child? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2008, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-its-happening-now-you-stupid-mother-fuckers-vaccines/460936/34 "2008-08-22T21:35:30Z")
[QUOTE=Don’t Call Me Shirley] What I am saying is that church softens peoples’ brains so they’re more likely to buy into this type of shit. At least that’s my observation, after spending the first 18 years of my life going to church 3 times a week. The man standing behind the pulpit is to be listened to. He is not to be questioned under any circumstances. In fact, questioning him is evil and will cause you to burn in hell. If someone presents evidence to you that contradicts what the man in the pulpit told you, the evidence is wrong and the person presenting it is evil. [/QUOTE] Wouldn’t instilling in people an unquestioning obediance to authority make them _less_ likely to question doctors who recommend vaccinations? The leap from, “Don’t question the preacher, or you’ll burn in hell,” to “Don’t question the doctor, or you’ll get sick and die,” seems rather small to me. ---
**Author:** ![burundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3ec8ea/32.png) [@burundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/burundi)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2008, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-its-happening-now-you-stupid-mother-fuckers-vaccines/460936/35 "2008-08-22T21:35:53Z")
[QUOTE=lisacurl] The experience of seeing children die from measles, diphtheria, or other easily preventable diseases in this country has fallen from living memory to a great degree. People are so unbelievably ignorant. [/QUOTE] Exactly. Our great-grandmothers would have lined up around the block for the chance to vaccinate their children. I wish all of the no-vaccine crowd could be forced to read the diaries and letters of 19th century women who watched their babies die of diseases that we can now vaccinate against. And the public school’s religious exemption for vaccines is bullshit. You can have whatever whack-a-loon religious beliefs you want, but that doesn’t give you the right to put other children at risk. You believe that strongly in not vaccinating? Guess you better homeschool. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2008, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-its-happening-now-you-stupid-mother-fuckers-vaccines/460936/36 "2008-08-22T21:59:13Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] Wouldn’t instilling in people an unquestioning obediance to authority make them _less_ likely to question doctors who recommend vaccinations? The leap from, “Don’t question the preacher, or you’ll burn in hell,” to “Don’t question the doctor, or you’ll get sick and die,” seems rather small to me. [/QUOTE] Depends on whether they agree or not. Also, in my experience the main push of religion is as much to beleive that your _gut_ is a source of sure knowlege, as it is to believe your preacher. People pray, have ‘feelings’, and then act on them as if they were law. Guess what happens when they pray about immunization? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2008, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-its-happening-now-you-stupid-mother-fuckers-vaccines/460936/37 "2008-08-22T22:01:02Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] Wouldn’t instilling in people an unquestioning obediance to authority make them _less_ likely to question doctors who recommend vaccinations? The leap from, “Don’t question the preacher, or you’ll burn in hell,” to “Don’t question the doctor, or you’ll get sick and die,” seems rather small to me. [/QUOTE] It’s a very large difference, since the doctor’s authority is based on real world knowledge and real world consequences, while religious authority is based on the denial of those things. A true believer shouldn’t trust a doctor because it’s a small step from that to trusting a scientist. ---
**Author:** ![SkeptiJess](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea666f/32.png) [@SkeptiJess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkeptiJess)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2008, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-its-happening-now-you-stupid-mother-fuckers-vaccines/460936/38 "2008-08-22T22:01:07Z")
[QUOTE=burundi] Exactly. Our great-grandmothers would have lined up around the block for the chance to vaccinate their children. I wish all of the no-vaccine crowd could be forced to read the diaries and letters of 19th century women who watched their babies die of diseases that we can now vaccinate against. [/QUOTE] Or required to go to countries where vaccine-preventable diseases still rage. My son’s unit (he is a Navy Hospital Corpsman) visited Africa last year on a mission of mercy. They set up a medical camp to provide care to the surrounding villages. They saw several hundred children, many of whom were suffering from vaccine-preventable diseases, or the after-affects of vaccine-preventable diseases. You can bet my grandchildren will be fully vaccinated! I’ll add my voice to the chorus against **elbows** seemingly well-thought-out post. **Elbows** , the problem is, the decision not to vaccinate is _not_ a decision which will only affect your own children. Vaccination requires herd-immunity to function properly. Some people cannot be vaccinated because of health issues; and for some other people, the vaccinations will not ‘take.’ These unprotected people are sheltered under herd immunity, so long as _most_ of the rest of the population is vaccinated. This herd immunity protection fails when the vaccination rate falls below a certain percent. **Don’t Call Me Shirley** ; I share your outrage. Unfortunately, it will take an epidemic to bring some people to the senses. If then. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2008, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-its-happening-now-you-stupid-mother-fuckers-vaccines/460936/39 "2008-08-22T22:27:51Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] Wouldn’t instilling in people an unquestioning obediance to authority make them _less_ likely to question doctors who recommend vaccinations? The leap from, “Don’t question the preacher, or you’ll burn in hell,” to “Don’t question the doctor, or you’ll get sick and die,” seems rather small to me. [/QUOTE] Not if what the doctor is telling you contradicts what your preacher is telling you. Especially if the doctor is telling you the same things the evil scientists are saying. The preacher has more hanging over your head: the possibility of getting sick versus the certainty of burning forever. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2008, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-its-happening-now-you-stupid-mother-fuckers-vaccines/460936/40 "2008-08-22T22:33:20Z")
[QUOTE=Don’t Call Me Shirley] Not if what the doctor is telling you contradicts what your preacher is telling you. Especially if the doctor is telling you the same things the evil scientists are saying. The preacher has more hanging over your head: the possibility of getting sick versus the certainty of burning forever. [/QUOTE] Sure, but I thought you just conceded that you don’t know of any churches that preach against vaccination as part of their religious doctrine? > [@begbert2](#): > > Also, in my experience the main push of religion is as much to beleive that your gut is a source of sure knowlege, as it is to believe your preacher. People pray, have ‘feelings’, and then act on them as if they were law. Guess what happens when they pray about immunization? That may very well be the case, but I was specifically responding to **Shirley** ’s contention that unthinking obediance to religion is the cause of anti-vaxers. Your model of religious thought doesn’t seem congruent with his, so my argument doesn’t really apply to it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-its-happening-now-you-stupid-mother-fuckers-vaccines/460936.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-its-happening-now-you-stupid-mother-fuckers-vaccines/460936.md?page=3)