# Well the British General Election campaign has started - It's a long way to May! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 14, 2005, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-the-british-general-election-campaign-has-started-its-a-long-way-to-may/290013 "2005-02-14T15:50:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2005, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-the-british-general-election-campaign-has-started-its-a-long-way-to-may/290013/41 "2005-02-15T11:42:53Z")
> [@owlstretchingtime](#): > > Well it’s a start. The phenomenon of health tourism is no myth - it happens rather a lot. Even if we take this Mail-influenced statement as fact, it has nothing to do with the Tory plans. Somebody coming here just to take advantage of healthcare is hardly going to do so on a long-term visa, are they? ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2005, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-the-british-general-election-campaign-has-started-its-a-long-way-to-may/290013/42 "2005-02-15T11:45:41Z")
Oh, and another thing - if the immigration system can’t cope with the present bureaucracy (which I don’t think anybody will dispute, certainly not the Torys), how will introducing more be of help? ---
**Author:** ![owlstretchingtime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/958977/32.png) [@owlstretchingtime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlstretchingtime)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2005, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-the-british-general-election-campaign-has-started-its-a-long-way-to-may/290013/43 "2005-02-15T11:48:18Z")
Like I said - it’s a start. Having said that I do agree that it won’t make a lot of difference, but better than nothing. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2005, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-the-british-general-election-campaign-has-started-its-a-long-way-to-may/290013/44 "2005-02-15T11:51:13Z")
So it won’t make a difference to what you identify as the problems, and it’ll harm the skilled immigration that we need?..sounds like worse than nothing, to me. ---
**Author:** ![owlstretchingtime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/958977/32.png) [@owlstretchingtime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlstretchingtime)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2005, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-the-british-general-election-campaign-has-started-its-a-long-way-to-may/290013/45 "2005-02-15T12:00:00Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > Oh, and another thing - if the immigration system can’t cope with the present bureaucracy (which I don’t think anybody will dispute, certainly not the Torys), how will introducing more be of help? The problem with immigration is that no one will tell the truth about it. Britain does need immigrants - it needs well educated, english speaking people from outside the EU. It also needs large groups of less well skilled people to do the jobs that the two million idle people in this country can’t be arsed to do - these can come from inside the EU - predominantly Eastern Europe. My lot seem unwilling to acknowldge that we need these immigrants and the Labour mob are unwilling to attempt to manage immigration to any extent at all. THis is why we are getting so many “asylum seekers” who are quite simply economic migrants. There is nothing wrong with letting in economic migrants, but there is a great deal wrong with the current system of making them pretend that they are being persecuted. That’s where the quota scheme that Howard has put forward comes in - we decide how many we need and then the people (“pipple” to Howard) apply and the ones that fit our needs get in. ---
**Author:** ![GSV\_Consolation\_of\_Dreams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f1d935/32.png) [@GSV\_Consolation\_of\_Dreams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GSV_Consolation_of_Dreams)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2005, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-the-british-general-election-campaign-has-started-its-a-long-way-to-may/290013/46 "2005-02-15T12:19:57Z")
> [@owlstretchingtime](#): > > The problem with immigration is that no one will tell the truth about it. Britain does need immigrants - it needs well educated, english speaking people from outside the EU. It also needs large groups of less well skilled people to do the jobs that the two million idle people in this country can’t be arsed to do - these can come from inside the EU - predominantly Eastern Europe. What’s wrong with educated, english speakers from within the EU? How nice of you to let in the EU Eastern Europeans, I’m sure they’ll be so glad they can come and do all the crap jobs. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![owlstretchingtime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/958977/32.png) [@owlstretchingtime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlstretchingtime)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2005, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-the-british-general-election-campaign-has-started-its-a-long-way-to-may/290013/47 "2005-02-15T12:28:44Z")
> [@GSV Consolation of Dreams](#): > > What’s wrong with educated, english speakers from within the EU? > How nice of you to let in the EU Eastern Europeans, I’m sure they’ll be so glad they can come and do all the crap jobs. > :rolleyes: Techically people moving about the EU isn’t immigration is it? And I am sure that the Eastern Europeans are very happy working in Starbucks. I’d be happier if some of the two million dole moles got off their arses instead of mumping off the state, but you can’t have everything can you? ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2005, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-the-british-general-election-campaign-has-started-its-a-long-way-to-may/290013/48 "2005-02-15T12:38:05Z")
> [@owlstretchingtime](#): > > two million idle people Where do you get this figure from? > [@](#): > > My lot seem unwilling to acknowldge that we need these immigrants and the Labour mob are unwilling to attempt to manage immigration to any extent at all. I’ll agree that Labour seem _incapable_ of managing it. > [@](#): > > This is why we are getting so many “asylum seekers” who are quite simply economic migrants. Evidence for this? Again, unsupported Mail-esque statements don’t do your argument any good. > [@](#): > > That’s where the quota scheme that Howard has put forward comes in - we decide how many we need and then the people (“pipple” to Howard) apply and the ones that fit our needs get in. What do you do when the quota for asylum seekers has been reached? > [@owlstretchingtime](#): > > Techically people moving about the EU isn’t immigration is it? Now _that_ is a clever way of shifting the goalposts. (Weren’t the Torys scared stiff of mass immigration from the new EU states not so long ago?) ---
**Author:** ![owlstretchingtime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/958977/32.png) [@owlstretchingtime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlstretchingtime)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2005, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-the-british-general-election-campaign-has-started-its-a-long-way-to-may/290013/49 "2005-02-15T12:44:19Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > Where do you get this figure from??) Over one million people on invalidity benefit + unemployed/economically idle comes to around 2 million give or take a few. > [@](#): > > What do you do when the quota for asylum seekers has been reached?.?) Not let any more in. > [@](#): > > Now _that_ is a clever way of shifting the goalposts. (Weren’t the Torys scared stiff of mass immigration from the new EU states not so long ago?) The Mail got it’s knickers in a knot about the impending invasion of the gypsy hordes - but we’re not all Mail readers you know - some of us are actually presentable in public. Plus have you ever tried to get a baby sitter or cleaner in London? ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2005, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-the-british-general-election-campaign-has-started-its-a-long-way-to-may/290013/50 "2005-02-15T12:48:20Z")
> [@owlstretchingtime](#): > > Over one million people on invalidity benefit + unemployed/economically idle comes to around 2 million give or take a few. I presume you mean incapacity benefit. You do realise that that means that they’re assessed as _not capable_ of work? (I’ve been there myself - so I guess you just called me idle. :dubious: ) > [@](#): > > Not let any more in. Errrrr…slight problem. Before they become asylum seekers, they have to already be in the country. (It’s not possible to legally enter the country in order to claim political asylum, which is why they have to do so illegally.) So to enforce a quota, you will have to remove them from the country. How do you plan to do that? ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2005, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-the-british-general-election-campaign-has-started-its-a-long-way-to-may/290013/51 "2005-02-15T12:53:33Z")
> [@owl](#): > > THis is why we are getting so many “asylum seekers” who are quite simply economic migrants. Note that the vast majority have some reason to seek **asylum** because their own countries are so god-awfully [fucked up](http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/uk/2001/destination_uk/default.stm): there is a _reason_ why so many Afghans, Somalians, Central Africans and Iraqis apply for a safe haven where they are not under threat of imminent death. I would like to see the simple words “refugee” or “dissident” reinstated in place of “asylum seeker”, which through utter misuse _has_ come to mean “economic migrant”. > [@owl](#): > > I’d be happier if some of the two million dole moles got off their arses instead of mumping off the state, but you can’t have everything can you? We are at the lower limit of what unemployment rate is economically acceptable: any lower and the workforce would become less ‘expendable’, thus pushing up inflation. Not that you would believe me, **owl** , but there is _genuine unemployment in Wales and the North_ because Eddie George [likes it that way](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/the_economy/197995.stm). ---
**Author:** ![GSV\_Consolation\_of\_Dreams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f1d935/32.png) [@GSV\_Consolation\_of\_Dreams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GSV_Consolation_of_Dreams)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2005, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-the-british-general-election-campaign-has-started-its-a-long-way-to-may/290013/52 "2005-02-15T12:55:00Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > Errrrr…slight problem. Before they become asylum seekers, they have to already be in the country. (It’s not possible to legally enter the country in order to claim political asylum, which is why they have to do so illegally.) So to enforce a quota, you will have to remove them from the country. How do you plan to do that? They would probably be subjected to absurd rhetorical questions (in true Daily Mail fashion) until they all left in disgust. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![owlstretchingtime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/958977/32.png) [@owlstretchingtime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlstretchingtime)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2005, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-the-british-general-election-campaign-has-started-its-a-long-way-to-may/290013/53 "2005-02-15T12:55:39Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > I presume you mean incapacity benefit. You do realise that that means that they’re assessed as _not capable_ of work? (I’ve been there myself - so I guess you just called me idle. :dubious: )? There are certainly people who can’t work - but are you really telling me that there are one million people in Britain who can’t do anything at all? It’s just a way of hiding the unemployment figures (and yes we did it too). ? > [@](#): > > Errrrr…slight problem. Before they become asylum seekers, they have to already be in the country. (It’s not possible to legally enter the country in order to claim political asylum, which is why they have to do so illegally.) So to enforce a quota, you will have to remove them from the country. How do you plan to do that? It’s not easy but it is doable. Firstly have a visa scheme for all countries likely to give rise to asylum applications. Then have people at airports checking documents etc. Then refuse to accept in-country apllications. And finally deport failed claimants. In any case “asylum” is just the name that we have chosen to give to immigration - if there was a reasonable legal way of getting in, people wouldn’t have to go through this ridiculous charade. ---
**Author:** ![owlstretchingtime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/958977/32.png) [@owlstretchingtime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlstretchingtime)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2005, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-the-british-general-election-campaign-has-started-its-a-long-way-to-may/290013/54 "2005-02-15T12:59:50Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > Note that the vast majority have some reason to seek **asylum** because their own countries are so god-awfully [fucked up](http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/uk/2001/destination_uk/default.stm): there is a _reason_ why so many Afghans, Somalians, Central Africans and Iraqis apply for a safe haven where they are not under threat of imminent death. I would like to see the simple words “refugee” or “dissident” reinstated in place of “asylum seeker”, which through utter misuse _has_ come to mean “economic migrant”. > We are at the lower limit of what unemployment rate is economically acceptable: any lower and the workforce would become less ‘expendable’, thus pushing up inflation. Not that you would believe me, **owl** , but there is _genuine unemployment in Wales and the North_ because Eddie George [likes it that way](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/the_economy/197995.stm). Yes some places are fucked up. I am sorry for the people who have to live there. Not sorry enough to want them to come and live here though. Britain is a small crowded place - we’re full. And I don’t deny that there are people who are unemployed through no fault of their own. That’s why I’d like to see them taking up some of the jobs that people come halfway around the world to do instead of pretending to be sick. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2005, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-the-british-general-election-campaign-has-started-its-a-long-way-to-may/290013/55 "2005-02-15T13:03:56Z")
> [@owlstretchingtime](#): > > There are certainly people who can’t work - but are you really telling me that there are one million people in Britain who can’t do anything at all? It’s just a way of hiding the unemployment figures (and yes we did it too). I agree with you. But you can’t automatically lump all 1m into the ‘idle’ catagory. > [@](#): > > It’s not easy but it is doable. Firstly have a visa scheme for all countries likely to give rise to asylum applications. So you want people in fear for their lives, possibly persecuted by police and other authorities, to be able to obtain all necessary official documentation to prove they’re in danger? What about the countries where no reliable government even exists? > [@](#): > > Then have people at airports checking documents etc. Tried that, at Prague airport. Immigration officials quickly slipped into blatant racist discrimination. And doesn’t solve people-trafficking by land, nor is it corruption-proof. > [@](#): > > Then refuse to accept in-country apllications. In doing so, breaching the UN convention on refugees. > [@](#): > > And finally deport failed claimants How do you deport somebody to Somalia? > [@](#): > > In any case “asylum” is just the name that we have chosen to give to immigration. A preposterous statement. Political asylum is a very real concept. (Although I certainly have a problem with anybody assuming that all immigrants are asylum seekers.) ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2005, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-the-british-general-election-campaign-has-started-its-a-long-way-to-may/290013/56 "2005-02-15T13:05:17Z")
> [@](#): > > Britain is a small crowded place - we’re full. And aging. We need more young people than we’re giving birth to. And in some cases _we fucked up their country in the first place_. > [@](#): > > That’s why I’d like to see them taking up some of the jobs that people come halfway around the world to do instead of pretending to be sick. But that job surplus is often in regions far away from one’s own home: those jobs _simply aren’t there_ in Wales and the North. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2005, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-the-british-general-election-campaign-has-started-its-a-long-way-to-may/290013/57 "2005-02-15T13:06:15Z")
> [@owlstretchingtime](#): > > Britain is a small crowded place - we’re full. We take less than two percent of refugees. We can cope with more than that. We’re not full. ---
**Author:** ![owlstretchingtime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/958977/32.png) [@owlstretchingtime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlstretchingtime)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2005, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-the-british-general-election-campaign-has-started-its-a-long-way-to-may/290013/58 "2005-02-15T13:08:41Z")
The mechanics are open for debate. What isn’t is that the issue of immigration (of whatever kind) is a big political hot potato and one of a few that there is clear water between the parties on. The Tories have said that they will leave the relevant convention (The Geneva?) as it was set up following a European war to deal with European refugees and as such has no relevance to our current situation. That makes sense to me. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2005, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-the-british-general-election-campaign-has-started-its-a-long-way-to-may/290013/59 "2005-02-15T13:16:55Z")
> [@owlstretchingtime](#): > > The Tories have said that they will leave the relevant convention (The Geneva?) as it was set up following a European war to deal with European refugees and as such has no relevance to our current situation. That makes sense to me. It’s the 1951 Refugee Convention. Yes, it’s the product of another time. Which is a good reason to argue for _reforming_ it. The Tory stance, that we should abandon it completely, is scary - it validates any other country using a similar approach, even refusing to accept refugees completely, perhaps from a neighbouring state. This could be a huge step backwards. ---
**Author:** ![owlstretchingtime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/958977/32.png) [@owlstretchingtime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlstretchingtime)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2005, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-the-british-general-election-campaign-has-started-its-a-long-way-to-may/290013/60 "2005-02-15T13:41:56Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > It’s the 1951 Refugee Convention. Yes, it’s the product of another time. Which is a good reason to argue for _reforming_ it. The Tory stance, that we should abandon it completely, is scary - it validates any other country using a similar approach, even refusing to accept refugees completely, perhaps from a neighbouring state. This could be a huge step backwards. We can’t reform it on our own. What we can do is leave it and set up our own system that suits us, not the bloody UN (the worlds most useless body). Then we can take as many refugees as we like, not as many as can make their way here by whatever means. No one is saying that managed immigration isn’t of benefit to the country. What some of us are saying is that this current government aren’t able to manage it very well, and a new approach is required. It IS broke so it needs to be fixed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-the-british-general-election-campaign-has-started-its-a-long-way-to-may/290013.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-the-british-general-election-campaign-has-started-its-a-long-way-to-may/290013.md?page=4)