# Well, well, It looks like the government CAN pick winners and losers **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 16, 2014, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-well-it-looks-like-the-government-can-pick-winners-and-losers/704765 "2014-11-16T13:37:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2014, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-well-it-looks-like-the-government-can-pick-winners-and-losers/704765/41 "2014-11-17T16:46:42Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Let’s me reformulate this. I have two proposal : > > -we, the people, in spending our own money, have no problem doing so, or : > > -the government, in spending its own money, has no problem doing so. > Your government isn’t some mysterious and nefarious external entity. It’s the people you have picked to manage the common purse, and to make decisions and in particular to decide what risks to take with the money. Yes the government is an external entity. The rise of democracy has confused some folks, but it is clear to most. Otherwise, we have the curious cases of people imprisoning themselves, taking money from themselves against their own will, and sending themselves to be killed in war against their own will. I believe you are proceeding from faulty foundational concepts. You presumably believe the state is some sort of co-op. It is not. It was born in conquest, and remains an antagonist to the people. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2014, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-well-it-looks-like-the-government-can-pick-winners-and-losers/704765/42 "2014-11-17T17:43:03Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > It was born in conquest, and remains an antagonist to the people. Not sure how to respond to such a ridiculous hyperbolic statement. American history is filled with examples in which the government stepped in to protect the people, usually minorities, from morally corrupt actions of society. It’s also filled with examples in which the government sided with the morally corrupt, of course. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2014, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-well-it-looks-like-the-government-can-pick-winners-and-losers/704765/43 "2014-11-17T17:44:02Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Time to preach, let me roll out my Port-a-Pulpit… > > Clean, green energy may be possible, may not be. We don’t know, but we damned sure ought to! We swim in a sea of energy, we can’t tap it? We can’t utilize it? Fucking algae can, we can’t? We may be one Einstein, one Tesla away from the breakthrough for clean, green and abundant energy. How stupid would we have to be not to go for it? Dumber than algae. We know it’s possible. We need to engineer it so it’s economical. That’s what people are actively engaging in now. > [@](#): > > Maybe it isn’t possible. But commercially manufactured solar power is happening now. How long ago was it when that was considered impossible? Having started, what is going to stop us? I don’t think we ever thought solar power was impossible. At least not among scientist. > [@](#): > > And I want it to be us. The Americans, who put the footprints on the moon. As a red-blooded, flag-waving, all American radical lefty I say: if not us, who? If not now, when? We either do it, and lead the world, or they do it, and we follow. And sell it to us, who ought to be selling it to them! I’m going to disagree with that. This isn’t the cold war, and we’re not in race with the USSR to get to the moon. There is no reason this should not be a world-wide effort, funded world-wide since it’s a world-wide problem. Let’s partner with the Japanese, the Europeans, the Indians and yes even the Chinese and Russians to get us out of carbon based energy ASAP. > [@](#): > > Compared to the prospect of clean green energy, fifty Solyndras going totally belly-up is piddling, chump change, no more than a couple of sheets from a roll of Dollar Store toilet paper!. Agreed. $500M dumped on Solyndra is a rounding error. We can argue about the wisdom of the entire program, but that particular example was a mole hill made into a mountain for partisan purposes by the Republicans. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-well-it-looks-like-the-government-can-pick-winners-and-losers/704765/44 "2014-11-18T03:36:26Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Then why was Tesla forced to get government loans? Where was private investment? Their business model seems to have worked out OK. Well, a company selling electric cars was, at best, an unproven business model. Given that it had never worked before, I imagine private investors were hesitant to put in their money hoping “this time it will work.” That it did work is a testament to the innovative approach Tesla took toward designing and marketing electric cars. We should bear in mind, however, that Tesla is a relatively new company, in an already-flooded automobile industry. Their long-term sustainability has yet to play out. So far, they have done well. ---
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-well-it-looks-like-the-government-can-pick-winners-and-losers/704765/45 "2014-11-18T06:06:45Z")
Everyone remembers Tesla but who remembers Fisker Automotive who were coming up at the same time and managed to consume about $1.4B of cash from public and private sources before going bankrupt with almost $1B in debt? Both looked like approximately equal risk bets at the time yet one is worth $30B and the other -$2.5B. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-well-it-looks-like-the-government-can-pick-winners-and-losers/704765/46 "2014-11-18T16:34:30Z")
> [@Shalmanese](#): > > h > > In 2012, private investment actually [dropped from $9.6B to $6.5B](http://phys.org/news/2013-01-cleantech-cliff-global-venture-capital.html). In the meantime, government investments in cleantech peaked at [$44B in 2009, dropping to $31B in 2012](http://www.greenoptimistic.com/2012/04/20/cleantech-industry-fall/#.VGn0XZPF9bw), dwarfing the role of private money. The “peak” of (US) government spending was due (per your own cite) to the one-time infusion of money from the Stimulus Bill. It makes no sense to compare that number to the steady-state situation we are in now. That stead-state is going to have ups and downs as businesses adjust to differing investment environments. You might as well decry the lack of government investment in the auto industry since it is plummeting today compared to what it was in 2009. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-well-it-looks-like-the-government-can-pick-winners-and-losers/704765/47 "2014-11-18T19:51:39Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Not sure how to respond to such a ridiculous hyperbolic statement. American history is filled with examples in which the government stepped in to protect the people, usually minorities, from morally corrupt actions of society. It’s also filled with examples in which the government sided with the morally corrupt, of course. Today’s Lesson: Society doesn’t act. Individuals act. If you are suggesting that individuals are voluntarily interacting such that alternative energy industries are insufficiently capitalized, and that this is an example of your “morally corrupt actions of society”, state it explicitly so I can disagree. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-well-it-looks-like-the-government-can-pick-winners-and-losers/704765/48 "2014-11-18T19:59:56Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Today’s Lesson: Society doesn’t act. Individuals act. Silly semantic argument. I’m happy to rephrase to satsify: American history is filled with examples in which the government stepped in to protect the people, usually minorities, from morally corrupt actions of large numbers of people. It’s also filled with examples in which the government sided with the morally corrupt, of course. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-well-it-looks-like-the-government-can-pick-winners-and-losers/704765.md?page=2)