# Well, well well, look at what funeral Fred Phelps and Co. plan to picket next? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 6, 2008, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-well-well-look-at-what-funeral-fred-phelps-and-co-plan-to-picket-next/471556 "2008-11-06T23:50:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![whatami](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/85f322/32.png) [@whatami](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whatami)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2008, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-well-well-look-at-what-funeral-fred-phelps-and-co-plan-to-picket-next/471556/21 "2008-11-07T02:53:11Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > I wouldn’t. I despise these assholes - no, wait, that’s not fair. I don’t want to compare them to essential body parts that everybody has. So: I despise these inflamed, septic appendices, _but_ - > > They have the right to demonstrate in whatever cause they wish, in whatever public space they wish, so long as they do not interfere with traffic flows or public safety. That’s what our First Amendment is about - it doesn’t mean a damn thing if it only protects popular speech, or even _tolerable_ speech. It is when people engage in wildly _unpopular_ speech that they need the First Amendment most dearly. And we, in turn, need people to be able to engage in unpopular speech - abolition, women’s rights, the Civil Rights Movement, gay rights, etc, etc were all once wildly unpopular causes, after all. They prevailed in the marketplace of ideas because the First Amendment gave them that space, and we’re better off for it. > > Of course, the ideas of the Phelps clan are loathesome beyond belief - let there be no mistake about that. But there will almost certainly be some other group, in the future, with wildly unpopular ideas that turn out to have real value for our society. We’ll want _them_ to be able to speak then - and so we must allow the Phelps group to speak today. > > I hate everything the Westboro Baptists Church stands for, but I hope their demonstration proceeds unhindered. Not for their sake, but for ours. I think this is very well said. Thanks ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2008, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-well-well-look-at-what-funeral-fred-phelps-and-co-plan-to-picket-next/471556/22 "2008-11-07T03:20:13Z")
Ah, but your right to swing your fist ends at my nose. We’re talking about the President Elect, at his grandmother’s funeral. I have a feeling the Secret Service is going to be VERY intimidating. Besides, the Phelps come VERY close to crossing the line from “free speech” to “harassment.” And yes, there IS a difference. Your right to swing your fist ends at my nose and all that. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2008, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-well-well-look-at-what-funeral-fred-phelps-and-co-plan-to-picket-next/471556/23 "2008-11-07T03:21:43Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > They have the right to demonstrate in whatever cause they wish, in whatever public space they wish, so long as they do not interfere with traffic flows or public safety. That’s what our First Amendment is about - it doesn’t mean a damn thing if it only protects popular speech, or even _tolerable_ speech. It is when people engage in wildly _unpopular_ speech that they need the First Amendment most dearly. And we, in turn, need people to be able to engage in unpopular speech - abolition, women’s rights, the Civil Rights Movement, gay rights, etc, etc were all once wildly unpopular causes, after all. They prevailed in the marketplace of ideas because the First Amendment gave them that space, and we’re better off for it. I agree with their freedom to hold and express any view they so desire and they should be completely free to demonstrate within reason, but just as freedom of the press does not give you the right to savagely libel another person (especially one who’s not a public figure) without legal consequences, I think the Phelps clan has gone beyond the spirit of the First Amendment and into harassment. This is more a topic for debate than a pitting I suppose, but it is an interesting one. The judge in the lawsuit filed against them by Lance Cpl. Snyder agreed. [From Wiki:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Phelps) > [@](#): > > In his instructions to the jury U.S. District Judge Richard Bennett stated that the First Amendment protection of free speech has limits, including vulgar, offensive and shocking statements, and that the jury must decide “whether the defendant’s actions would be highly offensive to a reasonable person, whether they were extreme and outrageous and whether these actions were so offensive and shocking as to not be entitled to First Amendment protection.” See also [Chaplinsky v. New Hampshire](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaplinsky_v._New_Hampshire), a case where certain personal slurs and obscene utterances by an individual were found unworthy of First Amendment protection, due to the potential for violence resulting from their utterance. This is a case that might make its way to D.C. eventually. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2008, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-well-well-look-at-what-funeral-fred-phelps-and-co-plan-to-picket-next/471556/24 "2008-11-07T03:25:08Z")
Ah, the old “Fire in a crowded theater”, law, eh **Sampiro**? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2008, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-well-well-look-at-what-funeral-fred-phelps-and-co-plan-to-picket-next/471556/25 "2008-11-07T03:35:19Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Ah, the old “Fire in a crowded theater”, law, eh **Sampiro**? It’s more than that - there is certain speech (“fighting words”) which is consistently considered beyond the protection of free speech. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2008, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-well-well-look-at-what-funeral-fred-phelps-and-co-plan-to-picket-next/471556/26 "2008-11-07T03:36:14Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > I wouldn’t. I despise these assholes - no, wait, that’s not fair. I don’t want to compare them to essential body parts that everybody has. So: I despise these inflamed, septic appendices, _but_ - > > They have the right to demonstrate in whatever cause they wish, in whatever public space they wish, so long as they do not interfere with traffic flows or public safety. That’s what our First Amendment is about - it doesn’t mean a damn thing if it only protects popular speech, or even _tolerable_ speech. It is when people engage in wildly _unpopular_ speech that they need the First Amendment most dearly. And we, in turn, need people to be able to engage in unpopular speech - abolition, women’s rights, the Civil Rights Movement, gay rights, etc, etc were all once wildly unpopular causes, after all. They prevailed in the marketplace of ideas because the First Amendment gave them that space, and we’re better off for it. > > Of course, the ideas of the Phelps clan are loathesome beyond belief - let there be no mistake about that. But there will almost certainly be some other group, in the future, with wildly unpopular ideas that turn out to have real value for our society. We’ll want _them_ to be able to speak then - and so we must allow the Phelps group to speak today. > > I hate everything the Westboro Baptists Church stands for, but I hope their demonstration proceeds unhindered. Not for their sake, but for ours. I would also defend this right - but I have noted in other threads that numerous courts (including the Supreme Court) have found time and place restrictions on protests to be perfectly constitutional. And while protests against funerals haven’t been tested specifically, they are now on the books in many places and this other case law indicates that this is kosher. So protest all you want - just shut up during the funeral and keep your distance. Afterward, say what you want to. No sweat. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2008, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-well-well-look-at-what-funeral-fred-phelps-and-co-plan-to-picket-next/471556/27 "2008-11-07T03:50:23Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > I wouldn’t. I despise these assholes - no, wait, that’s not fair. I don’t want to compare them to essential body parts that everybody has. So: I despise these inflamed, septic appendices, _but_ - > > They have the right to demonstrate in whatever cause they wish, in whatever public space they wish, so long as they do not interfere with traffic flows or public safety. That’s what our First Amendment is about - it doesn’t mean a damn thing if it only protects popular speech, or even _tolerable_ speech. It is when people engage in wildly _unpopular_ speech that they need the First Amendment most dearly. And we, in turn, need people to be able to engage in unpopular speech - abolition, women’s rights, the Civil Rights Movement, gay rights, etc, etc were all once wildly unpopular causes, after all. They prevailed in the marketplace of ideas because the First Amendment gave them that space, and we’re better off for it. > > Of course, the ideas of the Phelps clan are loathesome beyond belief - let there be no mistake about that. But there will almost certainly be some other group, in the future, with wildly unpopular ideas that turn out to have real value for our society. We’ll want _them_ to be able to speak then - and so we must allow the Phelps group to speak today. > > I hate everything the Westboro Baptists Church stands for, but I hope their demonstration proceeds unhindered. Not for their sake, but for ours. There’s also a thing called respect for the dead and their grieving family and friends. It’s not a law, but if you need laws to tell you that this demonstration is WRONG, then … well… good luck to you. Phelps and his clan can have their free speech whenever and wherever they want, but they’ve chosen to do it at funerals which just shows that they do not deserve to belong to the society that protects their rights. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2008, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-well-well-look-at-what-funeral-fred-phelps-and-co-plan-to-picket-next/471556/28 "2008-11-07T04:00:23Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > I hate everything the Westboro Baptists Church stands for, but I hope their demonstration proceeds unhindered. Not for their sake, but for ours. I hope the Secret Service shoots every single one of them as a “terrorist.” I’m willing to take the chance on our system and Constitution surviving. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2008, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-well-well-look-at-what-funeral-fred-phelps-and-co-plan-to-picket-next/471556/29 "2008-11-07T04:05:27Z")
I’ve got to do something about my monitor screen which is aging. I opened the OP’s link I observed what I assumed was Fred Phelps and as I looked right, surprise, Obama! What the hell was Obama doing cozying up to Phelps? Then I recognized his grandmother and my brief hallucination was over. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2008, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-well-well-look-at-what-funeral-fred-phelps-and-co-plan-to-picket-next/471556/30 "2008-11-07T04:08:54Z")
I’ll admit I opened this thread wondering if they were going to picket Michael Crichton’s funeral. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2008, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-well-well-look-at-what-funeral-fred-phelps-and-co-plan-to-picket-next/471556/31 "2008-11-07T04:47:45Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > I hope the Secret Service shoots every single one of them as a “terrorist.” I’m willing to take the chance on our system and Constitution surviving. Yes. Democracy thrives when unarmed demonstrators are shot down in our streets. Besides, these guys are jerks! ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2008, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-well-well-look-at-what-funeral-fred-phelps-and-co-plan-to-picket-next/471556/32 "2008-11-07T04:55:26Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > Yes. Democracy thrives when unarmed demonstrators are shot down in our streets. Besides, these guys are jerks! No, but they’re more than demonstrators-they’re mostly bullies and usually harassing people. They’re NOT just demonstrating. Again, considering this is the new President Elect, and considering all the threats they’ve gotten against him, I have a feeling it’s going to be VERY hard for ol’ Freddie Boy to get near the funeral. (BTW, most funerals are held on PRIVATE property, you are aware?) -Funeral Director’s daughter ---
**Author:** ![kitemaker\_chuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/a88e4f/32.png) [@kitemaker\_chuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kitemaker_chuck)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2008, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-well-well-look-at-what-funeral-fred-phelps-and-co-plan-to-picket-next/471556/33 "2008-11-07T05:07:59Z")
I once referred to Phelps and his rancid robots as the Insane Church Posse, and they’re living up to that name! Maybe Phelps will try to get God to part the Pacific Ocean as he goose-steps his way to Hawaii! ---
**Author:** ![ToeJam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dfb087/32.png) [@ToeJam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ToeJam)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2008, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-well-well-look-at-what-funeral-fred-phelps-and-co-plan-to-picket-next/471556/34 "2008-11-07T05:26:46Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > And not to mention that Dog the Bounty Hunter is in Hawaii, armed to the teeth, has surveillance equipment, a larger clan than Phred has, and is very eager to do something on camera that says “See! Me good white trash! Me whomp hell out this bad white trash family for new brown Father!” I would love to see this be an Episode on his TV show. I’d gladly buy any and all DVD versions of it too. “Don’t tase me, Dog!” BZZZT! And down goes another vicious molester thanks to Dog and his clan rolling in their black SUVs, keeping the streets of Hawaii clean of bail bond jumpers. ---
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2008, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-well-well-look-at-what-funeral-fred-phelps-and-co-plan-to-picket-next/471556/35 "2008-11-07T05:27:18Z")
One group found the way to neutralize the Westboro scum - be amusing. The Central Arkansas Pastafarians [dressed up as Pirates and created a much more camera-friendly spectacle](http://www.arktimes.com/blogs/arkansasblog/2008/09/way_to_go_matie.aspx) than a bunch of homophobes. They held up signs like “God Hates Shrimp!” and “God Hates Polyester-Cotton Blends!” and were generally more worthy of 3 minutes on the local news. The Phelps clan packed up and left. Mockery is a powerful tool. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2008, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-well-well-look-at-what-funeral-fred-phelps-and-co-plan-to-picket-next/471556/36 "2008-11-07T05:53:50Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > Yes. Democracy thrives when unarmed demonstrators are shot down in our streets. Besides, these guys are jerks! A.) Our democracy has done far worse and survived. B.) Sometimes, jerks _need_ killin’. The Phelpsters are an _insult_ to the ideals of all humanity. Worse yet, they seek to actively _oppose_ the rest of us in the pursuit of achieving those goals. They have done it not only with protests, but lawsuits as well. Were they to conduct themselves in a _civilized_ manner, calling for them to be killed would be an unjust and immoral act. _However_, they’re a cancer in society, and should be excised with the same kind of clinical reaction as you would any abnormal growth. They, and their ilk, have held back the wheels of progress for far too long as it is. Theirs is the mentality which leads to the burning of libraries and the murder of Archimedes, Socrates, the incarceration of Galileo, and they are no better than those who crucified the God they worship. That more people do not rise up against them, is a stain upon all of us. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2008, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-well-well-look-at-what-funeral-fred-phelps-and-co-plan-to-picket-next/471556/37 "2008-11-07T06:06:17Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I’ll admit I opened this thread wondering if they were going to picket Michael Crichton’s funeral. Like they read. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2008, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-well-well-look-at-what-funeral-fred-phelps-and-co-plan-to-picket-next/471556/38 "2008-11-07T06:11:12Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > No, but they’re more than demonstrators-they’re mostly bullies and usually harassing people. They’re NOT just demonstrating. Again, considering this is the new President Elect, and considering all the threats they’ve gotten against him, I have a feeling it’s going to be VERY hard for ol’ Freddie Boy to get near the funeral. > > (BTW, most funerals are held on PRIVATE property, you are aware?) > > -Funeral Director’s daughter I want to preface this by emphasizing, once again, that I despise what these people are doing. That said - I’m aware most funerals are held on private property. But my guess is that Clan Phelps would be protesting on a public sidewalk or something outside that property. If not, by all means arrest them for trespassing. Further - what, exactly, distinguishes what they’re doing from regular demonstration? Unless they’re blocking access to the funeral, or otherwise physically interfering with people, that is _exactly_ what they’re doing. They’re demonstrating in an utterly vile cause - but it’s still First Amendment speech. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2008, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-well-well-look-at-what-funeral-fred-phelps-and-co-plan-to-picket-next/471556/39 "2008-11-07T06:15:00Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > A.) Our democracy has done far worse and survived. B.) Sometimes, jerks _need_ killin’. The Phelpsters are an _insult_ to the ideals of all humanity. Worse yet, they seek to actively _oppose_ the rest of us in the pursuit of achieving those goals. They have done it not only with protests, but lawsuits as well. Were they to conduct themselves in a _civilized_ manner, calling for them to be killed would be an unjust and immoral act. _However_, they’re a cancer in society, and should be excised with the same kind of clinical reaction as you would any abnormal growth. > > They, and their ilk, have held back the wheels of progress for far too long as it is. Theirs is the mentality which leads to the burning of libraries and the murder of Archimedes, Socrates, the incarceration of Galileo, and they are no better than those who crucified the God they worship. That more people do not rise up against them, is a stain upon all of us. Come on, man. I agree with everything you said about the Phelps’ character - but all they do is engage in speech. Disgusting speech, but speech. We have laws about speech - in short, those laws say you can do it. And they say that you cannot “rise up” and “excise” people for engaging in speech you disagree with - even if you have damn good reasons for doing so. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2008, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-well-well-look-at-what-funeral-fred-phelps-and-co-plan-to-picket-next/471556/40 "2008-11-07T06:19:10Z")
Dear Santa, Please, please, please can you have Phelps and his whole klan sent to Guantanamo? Forever? I promise to be good. Love, Lev [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-well-well-look-at-what-funeral-fred-phelps-and-co-plan-to-picket-next/471556.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-well-well-look-at-what-funeral-fred-phelps-and-co-plan-to-picket-next/471556.md?page=3)