# Well, well well, look at what funeral Fred Phelps and Co. plan to picket next? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 6, 2008, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-well-well-look-at-what-funeral-fred-phelps-and-co-plan-to-picket-next/471556 "2008-11-06T23:50:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2008, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-well-well-look-at-what-funeral-fred-phelps-and-co-plan-to-picket-next/471556/41 "2008-11-07T06:30:00Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > Further - what, exactly, distinguishes what they’re doing from regular demonstration? Unless they’re blocking access to the funeral, or otherwise physically interfering with people, that is _exactly_ what they’re doing. You can rest with the “I detest these people”- I don’t think anyone doubts you. When Jerry Falwell, John Hagee, the KKK, GLAAD, Ellen Degeneres, Howard Stern, the BBC, and most Dopers can _ALL_ agree that a family is fucking crazy and vile and worthy of denunciation, it’s taken for granted they’re fucking crazy and vile and worthy of denunciation.😉 But regarding interfering with people: screaming epithets and (baseless) insults and waving banners and signs designed for no purpose other than to offend and hurt and with no regard for truth value _in sight of mourners and family members of the deceased_ may not be a physical interference (it could be argued perhaps that since it’s in line of vision it creates a distraction that’s a potential physical danger), but it is very definitely, and intentionally, an attempt to inflict emotional and psychological pain/distress. Essentially Phred is a world class sadist and this is as close as he can get to horsewhipping people legally, and since it is psychologically damaging and serves absolutely no legitimate purpose as _any reasonable person_ would define the term, the human equivalent of pollution, I don’t see how it’s a violation of First Amendment to at least force them to move away from the view of the funeral procession. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2008, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-well-well-look-at-what-funeral-fred-phelps-and-co-plan-to-picket-next/471556/42 "2008-11-07T06:31:27Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > Come on, man. I agree with everything you said about the Phelps’ character - but all they do is engage in speech. Disgusting speech, but speech. We have laws about speech - in short, those laws say you can do it. And they say that you cannot “rise up” and “excise” people for engaging in speech you disagree with - even if you have damn good reasons for doing so. If it was _just_ speech, I would agree with you. They do **not** limit themselves to that. They harass, they **sue** , they violate the _spirit_ of the law, if not the letter of it. If there was **any** merit to their position (say they were absolute pacifists like Quakers and were objecting to the war, with peaceful and **respectful** demonstrations), then I’d have no problem with them. There is **not** , however, one redeeming quality about them, and so long as they draw breath, **we** are the lesser for it. ---
**Author:** ![NinjaChick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71c47a/32.png) [@NinjaChick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinjaChick)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2008, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-well-well-look-at-what-funeral-fred-phelps-and-co-plan-to-picket-next/471556/43 "2008-11-07T06:38:08Z")
I’m always kind of torn on the free speech/repugnant asshole thing. So for now, I’ll settle for really really hoping that one of the Phelpsites gets a little too close to a member of the Obama family and gets tackled by a Secret Service goon. And that it gets caught on film and uploaded to YouTube so I can watch a Phelpsite get taken down over and over and over and over again. From the press release, emphasis mine: > [@ignorant fuckwads](#): > > Obama says he will use the White House as a Bully Pulpit to advance the cause of murdering **more** babies and same-sex marriage. So, uh, was there previously a cause of just murdering some babies? The House Committee for Just Sometimes Shooting A Couple Infants? Also, on their list of upcoming pickets they’re including the embassy of the Republic of the Congo: > [@](#): > > THANK GOD FOR THE MURDEROUS CIVIL > TURMOIL THAT IS RACKING THE CONGO, WITH > THOUSANDS FLEEING VIOLENCE, AND A MLLION > DISPLACED BY THE INTERNAL STRIFE & RAPINE. Typos theirs. I’m not sure if the last word is meant to be raping or [rapine](http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rapine). Either way, I never fail to be awed by how classy these people are. ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2008, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-well-well-look-at-what-funeral-fred-phelps-and-co-plan-to-picket-next/471556/44 "2008-11-07T06:40:45Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > Further - what, exactly, distinguishes what they’re doing from regular demonstration? Unless they’re blocking access to the funeral, or otherwise physically interfering with people, that is _exactly_ what they’re doing. They’re demonstrating in an utterly vile cause - but it’s still First Amendment speech. Actually, you’d have to get **Baker** in here for a first person account (she lives in their same town and her church seems to be picketed by them on a regular basis when their not fowling up the air elsewhere), but that appears to be _exactly_ what they do, if I remember correctly. Blocking access and physically interfering with people is the norm for them, at least at home. And they hide behind their lawyerly family to be able to push and push and then push some more. So, I’d have no problem whatsoever with them getting on the wrong side of some tired and grumpy Secret Service agents. Perhaps then they’ll learn the difference between manners and polite opposition. ---
**Author:** ![rockle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/73ab20/32.png) [@rockle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rockle)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2008, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-well-well-look-at-what-funeral-fred-phelps-and-co-plan-to-picket-next/471556/45 "2008-11-07T11:18:42Z")
I _really_ hate to say this, because these people gross me out, but their [picket schedule](http://www.godhatesfags.com/schedule.html) is a veritable treasure trove of _comedy gold_. I mean, on the one hand, every time I hear the name “Phelps” I wish that Samuel L. Jackson would appear and get all “Pulp Fiction” on their asses, but on the other hand, they keep calling the Nebraska football team “the Corn Hussies.” They _cannot_ be serious, can they? This has to be _intentionally_ funny, right? Like it was written by [Betty Bowers](http://bettybowers.com/) or something. Their entire website appears to have been written … _tongue-in-cheekily_. It’s _bizarre_. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2008, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-well-well-look-at-what-funeral-fred-phelps-and-co-plan-to-picket-next/471556/46 "2008-11-07T11:42:20Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > Come on, man. I agree with everything you said about the Phelps’ character - but all they do is engage in speech. Disgusting speech, but speech. We have laws about speech - in short, those laws say you can do it. And they say that you cannot “rise up” and “excise” people for engaging in speech you disagree with - even if you have damn good reasons for doing so. Don’t give an inch, because you’re exactly right. They have the right to freely assemble and speak their minds. The great thing about allowing them those rights (aside from the ethical necessity) is that people get to hear just how fucking stupid they are. If we shut them up, people could join their church unaware. ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2008, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-well-well-look-at-what-funeral-fred-phelps-and-co-plan-to-picket-next/471556/47 "2008-11-07T11:46:38Z")
Did you guys get to see the Louis Theroux documentary [The Most Hated Family in America](http://www.afterelton.com/blog/dennis/at-home-with-fred-phelps)? I was amazed to find that his congregation is 71 people, and most are family members, yet the media treat him like a real leader of a significant population. Shit you could get 71 people to follow you if you were a homeless dude living under a bridge in Seattle. Look at Kurt Cobain. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2008, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-well-well-look-at-what-funeral-fred-phelps-and-co-plan-to-picket-next/471556/48 "2008-11-07T12:58:54Z")
Hopefully a lawyer can cite some case law on this, but when I read the first amendment, paying close attention to punctuation, it seems clear that it is saying that the right to assemble is tied to the right to petition the government for a redress of grievances. In other words, they only have the right to assemble if they are petitioning the government for a redress of grievances. Which the Phelps clan does not appear to be doing. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2008, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-well-well-look-at-what-funeral-fred-phelps-and-co-plan-to-picket-next/471556/49 "2008-11-07T13:34:47Z")
Then people aren’t free to go to church, hold union meetings, or attend concerts? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2008, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-well-well-look-at-what-funeral-fred-phelps-and-co-plan-to-picket-next/471556/50 "2008-11-07T13:35:03Z")
Targetting the President-elect is much more a petition of government for redress of grievances than picketing Heath Ledger. ---
**Author:** ![ToeJam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dfb087/32.png) [@ToeJam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ToeJam)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2008, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-well-well-look-at-what-funeral-fred-phelps-and-co-plan-to-picket-next/471556/51 "2008-11-07T13:41:40Z")
> [@don\_t\_ask](#): > > Shit you could get 71 people to follow you if you were a homeless dude living under a bridge in Seattle. Look at Kurt Cobain. Hey! Cobain was god! Phelps doesn’t belong in the same vein much less thread as Cobain! Have you HEARD the unplugged album!?! Jeez! I mean uh… you might have a point. But it’s not a good one. Cobain at least had something of value to provide to us via his music… ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2008, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-well-well-look-at-what-funeral-fred-phelps-and-co-plan-to-picket-next/471556/52 "2008-11-07T14:22:37Z")
> [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](#): > > Hopefully a lawyer can cite some case law on this, but when I read the first amendment, paying close attention to punctuation, it seems clear that it is saying that the right to assemble is tied to the right to petition the government for a redress of grievances. In other words, they only have the right to assemble if they are petitioning the government for a redress of grievances. Which the Phelps clan does not appear to be doing. I can be confusing, as the First Amendment is a veritable laundry list of rights - but the right to assemble is not tied tot he right to petition. Indeed, you can petition without assembling at all - think about sunshine laws, lobbying and the like - all of which are tied up with this right and restrictions upon it. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2008, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-well-well-look-at-what-funeral-fred-phelps-and-co-plan-to-picket-next/471556/53 "2008-11-07T14:30:52Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Then people aren’t free to go to church, hold union meetings, or attend concerts? Can’t speak for others, but I have no problem with any of the above even if your church/union/concert involves handling copperheads and screaming “the world is flat, Death to all Arkansans, and Penny Marshall is the one true prophet of God!” I don’t have a problem with them standing on street corners and spreading this message, or even holding up “---------- is burning in Hell” signs, so long as it is not during the funeral of \_\_\_\_\_\_". However, when that church, union meeting, or concert tells you to stand on a street corner and harass people who are grieving for a loved one by saying said loved one is in Hell, I think the issue becomes more gray. Perhaps that should be the answer: pass a “ **mourner’s rights** ” legislation that makes it illegal to protest the deceased from a place on a funeral route between one hour before and one hour after the funeral. Their freedom of speech and assembly are not abridged: they can protest there later that day, they can protest there the day before, they can protest during the funeral from a half mile away from the funeral route during the funeral. I loathe Ann Coulter with a passion. I think that if any group were to wish to protest her with signs and assemblies calling her a lying Nazi circus geek (with more justification imo than Phelps’ have regarding their targets) they should have that right; I probably wouldn’t join but I’d definitely do some PhotoShop for the signs if asked. However, while I loathe her- and James Dobson, and Pat Robertson, and Jack Chick, and John Hagee, and while imho they’ve all done great harm and intentionally inflicted great suffering- I do not think anybody should have the right to picket and protest and cause a distracting scene during their funeral or during the funeral of people that they love. I think people have the right to grieve in peace, and I think that the Phelps clan is _interfering with other people’s rights to assemble and worship_ (since funerals are a religious rite in most cases) by intentionally and willfully disturbing the mourners. So I submit again: I believe in a reasonable **Mourner’s Rights Law** that applies 1- only to the funeral route 2- only during, immediately before, and immediately after the funeral 3- is applicable to all funerals (not just military [as similar legislation proposed] or gays or others, but all funerals) I couldn’t give a damn if the Phelps want to protest their asses off the day before or the day after. They can protest standing next to the grave itself if the cemetery owner gives permission so long as it’s the day after, but the right to grieve in peace should trump the right to be an asshole without it leading to a slippery slope. Thoughts? Opinions? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2008, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-well-well-look-at-what-funeral-fred-phelps-and-co-plan-to-picket-next/471556/54 "2008-11-07T14:39:20Z")
Well, that’s what we did when we amended the disorderly conduct law in Virginia. The law applies to all funerals in the way you described. I think people have some confusion concerning the federal law concerning this - as it applies to national cemeteries only, and thus concerns veterans’ funerals as a general rule. But a second’s thought reveals that these are about the only cemeteries the federal government owns and has jurisdiction over. The states will have to pass similar laws to regulate funerals and cemeteries on their turf. Several have done so, and these laws have typically been crafted as **Sampiro** and I have described. ---
**Author:** ![rockle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/73ab20/32.png) [@rockle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rockle)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2008, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-well-well-look-at-what-funeral-fred-phelps-and-co-plan-to-picket-next/471556/55 "2008-11-07T14:51:42Z")
[QUOTE=Sampiro] Can’t speak for others, but I have no problem with any of the above even if your church/union/concert involves handling copperheads and screaming “the world is flat, Death to all Arkansans, and Penny Marshall is the one true prophet of God!” … Thoughts? Opinions? [/QUOTE] I think I should like to join this particular church, but I don’t really think that’s what you’re asking, is it? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2008, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-well-well-look-at-what-funeral-fred-phelps-and-co-plan-to-picket-next/471556/56 "2008-11-07T14:58:16Z")
> [@rockle](#): > > I _really_ hate to say this, because these people gross me out, but their [picket schedule](http://www.godhatesfags.com/schedule.html) is a veritable treasure trove of _comedy gold_. I mean, on the one hand, every time I hear the name “Phelps” I wish that Samuel L. Jackson would appear and get all “Pulp Fiction” on their asses, but on the other hand, they keep calling the Nebraska football team “the Corn Hussies.” They _cannot_ be serious, can they? This has to be _intentionally_ funny, right? Like it was written by [Betty Bowers](http://bettybowers.com/) or something. Their entire website appears to have been written … _tongue-in-cheekily_. It’s _bizarre_. It’s the converse of Poe’s Law. > [@](#): > > Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is impossible to create a parody of Fundamentalism that SOMEONE won’t mistake for the real thing The converse is, of course, that it’s impossible to tell whether or not a Fundamentalist website is real or parody, unless said parody is made absolutely obvious. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2008, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-well-well-look-at-what-funeral-fred-phelps-and-co-plan-to-picket-next/471556/57 "2008-11-07T15:04:14Z")
I don’t have many things that I can thank the Bush administration for, but I think they have managed to provide a solution for this situation… just let it be known that it’s the current administration’s Secret Service and DHS which are going to be enforcing security at this funeral, and I don’t think the Phelpsists are going to be much trouble… or if they are, then we won’t be hearing from them for a while. Either works for me. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2008, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-well-well-look-at-what-funeral-fred-phelps-and-co-plan-to-picket-next/471556/58 "2008-11-07T15:15:52Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > It seems that when it’s a funeral where they may get pushback, these days they mostly merely _announce_ they’re picketing, to get publicity. Some times they’ll also announce in the hope that, as happened when they threatened to picket the victims of the Amish schoolhouse shooting, some media outlet will bribe them with airtime for staying away. Which only tells you how many idiots are working in the news. What the hell is the point of giving airtime to a protest that never actually happens, threatened by repetitive cranks who are obviously just in it for the attention? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2008, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-well-well-look-at-what-funeral-fred-phelps-and-co-plan-to-picket-next/471556/59 "2008-11-07T15:38:30Z")
> [@gaffa](#): > > One group found the way to neutralize the Westboro scum - be amusing. The Central Arkansas Pastafarians [dressed up as Pirates and created a much more camera-friendly spectacle](http://www.arktimes.com/blogs/arkansasblog/2008/09/way_to_go_matie.aspx) than a bunch of homophobes. They held up signs like “God Hates Shrimp!” and “God Hates Polyester-Cotton Blends!” and were generally more worthy of 3 minutes on the local news. The Phelps clan packed up and left. Mockery is a powerful tool. IIRC, during Mister Rogers’s funeral, a crowd gathered around them and sang songs from _Mister Rogers’ Neighborhood_. Sorry, no cite at this time. ☹ I’ll see what I can do. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2008, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-well-well-look-at-what-funeral-fred-phelps-and-co-plan-to-picket-next/471556/60 "2008-11-07T15:57:05Z")
Ah! Here we are! [Pittsburgh bids farewell to Fred Rogers with moving public tribute](http://www.post-gazette.com/localnews/20030504rogers0504p1.asp) > [@](#): > > A group of about a half dozen members of an anti-gay organization gathered at the intersection of Penn Avenue and Sixth Street to protest what they called Rogers’ failure to condemn homosexuality. The group, which included an 8-year-old girl, held signs expressing their hatred of gays and, while standing on a torn American flag, their hatred of America. > > They were met by about 150 counter-demonstrators, members of gay rights and peace groups, who marched along the sidewalks and sang songs from Rogers’ program while holding signs calling for love and tolerance. While there were some heated exchanges, there were no arrests either there or at three other sites – the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, the University of Pittsburgh and Chatham College. EIGHT years old? Damn-those poor kids don’t even have a chance. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-well-well-look-at-what-funeral-fred-phelps-and-co-plan-to-picket-next/471556.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-well-well-look-at-what-funeral-fred-phelps-and-co-plan-to-picket-next/471556.md?page=4)